[HPforGrownups] Re: Sportsmanship in Harry Potter

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 151796

> Alla:
>
> I am not Karen, but I don't see anywhere in what she wrote an
> implication that we are not supposed to discuss the sportsmanship,
> etc. IMO of course.
>
> Maybe my perspective would be different from what she meant, but I
> will try.
>
> IMO graveyard scene has a great deal to do with the argument whether
> Harry LOSES any competitions, because Graveyeard scene shows me that
> despite getting the Cap, Harry in essense the biggest loser after
> the Tournament, well, no I guess he comes in second after poor
> Cedric who lost his life. Harry loses his innocence if he had any
> left yet, he lost the peace of mind, he was horribly tortured, etc.
>
> I cannot look at the Triwizard tournament without Graveyeard scene,
> because in essense as we all know Harry's participation in the
> tournament was forced in order to make Graveyeard come true.
>
> Harry lost as a result of his participation in the tournament and
> yes, I think what he lost cannot be compared to Victor Crum and
> Fleur coming in as third and fourth in the Tournament.

Magpie:
Yes, unfortunately, that's what didn't seem directly relevent.  It's not 
like Harry deserves to have horrible things happen to him because he got 
help in the tournament or is a Quidditch star.  We're talking about the 
giving of points and the author's decision to write the competitions the way 
she does.  They may have to do with each other in the sense that they keep 
Harry likeable to readers, or that the author likes to give him lots of 
triumphs to balance out the tragedies, but I don't think they have to do 
with each within the context of the thread.

> Magpie:
>> As for whether any of those students would choose to still be
> Harry
>> if they saw what happened in the graveyard?  Yes, many of them
>> probably would.
>
> Alla:
>
> Can you refer me to relevant canon, please?

Magpie:
No, there is no canon on this subject--that's why I said "probably." It just 
seemed like they would imo.  What they would really want would be what you 
said--the good bits of being Harry Potter--the fame, the glamor, whatever. 
But I don't think the dark side interferes with that.  He's a hero and he 
faced danger and lived--it's an adventure story.  Is it naive?  Yes, and if 
a kid actually found himself in that situation he'd hate it, but he hasn't 
been.  As I said, I wouldn't want anything to do with that crazy tournament, 
but it seems to be popular amongst wizards.

Alla:
Is the argument goes
to JKR displaying more fairness in school competition or to JKR
simply letting Slytherins win those competitions?

Magpie:
My gut reaction to this is not that it's a question of being fair (whichever 
team wins wins)  It's that I think having Harry always win makes it 
predictable and that there's times something different might have been 
different.  Specifically, I think having Harry win in OotP was the wrong 
dramatic choice.  And then after Harry was kicked off the team the Quidditch 
got even more artificial for me.  I liked Ron's doing well in the end, but 
the whole thing started to become too obviously fake to me.  In fact, the 
first time I read it I actually thought Gryffindor came in second for the 
cup, I think partially because I still think it's better dramatically.  JMO, 
of course.

Karen:
Sportsmanship doesn't pertain to the judges. None of the participants
seem like bad sports. A lot of the adults do. Karkaroff in
particular. And at least one judge has plenty of reason to feel
guilty over Harry, as we well know now. So, in *that* respect, no,
the awarding of extra points for moral fiber really has nothing to
with sportsmanship. Harry's (and the others) acceptance of that does,
but none of them seem to behave badly over it.

Magpie:
Yes, I agree.  I don't think Harry's behavior is a problem--and I understand 
balancing out the tragedy with triumph.  (I also think that given Harry's 
life it's understandable he'd think he was facing the real thing with the 
merpeople.)  Dramatically, I think it may actually have been more 
interesting if there was more variety. If Harry had really fought to win at 
the tourament, I think I'd find it more tragic when what he wins is that 
Graveyard chapter.  It's a pattern that has started to take me out of the 
story towards the end of the series.

kchuplis:

Maybe, but that doesn't speak to what actually happened. As a
fourteen year old, he had only a few giddy fantasy thoughts about it
(which is probably about what even the seventh years have about this
contest - vague fantasy thoughts of glory) and even then, decided
that might not be for him, but got pushed into it anyway.

Magpie:
Exactly--and I agree that this is one of the themes of GoF, the difference 
between fantasy glory and real glory, and fantasy danger and real danger. 
But as you said, you don't really know until you've been there, so I do 
still think that there are probably many kids who'd see the glory of Harry 
defeating Voldemort before they saw how awful it was.  Naturally the kid 
would assume that, being Harry Potter, he'd have the same success.

-m