Sportsmanship in Harry Potter / Bad Slytherins

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 151797

> > >>Joe:
> > Erm don't we see a great deal of Bullying by Malfoy, Crabbe and
> > Goyle. Well at least attempted bullying? Just because they are 
bad
> > at it doens't mean they aren't doing it.
> 
> > >>Alla:
> > Sure we do. Neville comes to mind of the top of my head right 
away.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Actually, we don't.  The reason Neville springs to mind is that 
he's 
> the only person we see bullied by Draco.  And Neville is a peer.  
> Meanwhile, the twins hiss newly sorted Slytherins.  (Nice welcome 
to 
> Hogwarts, by the way.  Make sure the new Slytherins realize 
they're 
> the red-headed stepchildren of the Hogwarts world.)

Alla:

Hehe. You may not see it, but I absolutely do. I have to go through 
books to double check if Draco bullies the younger students, but 
Neville is NOT the only student Draco bullies in my book. He is also 
bullying Hermione and Ron and Harry too. So, even if he only bullies 
his peers, his offense does not become any less offensive in my 
book. And if he never allows to win in his bullying, well, that 
again does not make his offenses any less in my book. What matters 
to me is that he wholeheartedly TRIES. And as we went over that many 
times in the past, I think Draco deserves every single punch he 
gets. Why? Because he gets those punches for doing bad things. IMO 
of course.

Hey, maybe those punches will finally lead to him opening his eyes 
in book 7.

> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> Evilness determined at the age of eleven just doesn't strike me as 
> right, somehow.

Alla:

I've always said that while I have no problems whatsoever with JKR 
maintaining that Gryffindors are right  and Slytherins are not in 
their philosophy, I would also have problems with qualifying eleven 
year olds as evil in RL, but recently I read some very horrifying 
stories about very young kids committing horrible crimes, so I am 
more and more inclined to think that there ARE bad children in real 
life, and their badness shows up quite early unfortunately.

There are reasons why courts sometimes agree to try teenagers as 
adults. Their crimes are that bad.

 
> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
>> And yeah, you're not going to sell the "whipping boy" thing for 
> potions to me.  Snape is hard, he ain't that bad, IMO.  Not even 
> with Harry.  
> 
> Yes, being pointed at by people in other houses isn't fun.  But 
> Harry's core group stays true.  And when they don't (in OotP with 
> the rogue Seamus) his best friend is Prefect and not afraid to 
throw 
> his weight around.  

Alla:

Oh, besides the fact that of course I think that Harry's experiences 
with Snape can account to the level of horrifying, I also have to 
say that while Harry wins in competitions, I don't buy that his life 
in Hogwarts is easy AT ALL.

Yeah, being pointed at by whole school except few people is not fun, 
to put it mildly, but it is not just school, whole WW turns on Harry 
in the beginning of OOP.

That is great that two of his dearest friends stay with him, but 
three against whole WW? Sounds pretty horrible to me.

 
> > >>kchuplis:
> > Soooooo how much more does Harry have to do to show real 
moral     
> > fiber?  
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I'd love to see him take something and pay for it.  I mean, 
really, 
> really, pay for it.  Not think he's going to pay for it and then 
> have Dumbledore save him.  (Ooh, hey!  Maybe that'll happen in 
book 
> 7?)

Alla:

He paid for his trip to MoM by losing Sirius. Dumbledore did not 
save him from losing a loved one. That does not count?

 
> > >>kchuplis:
> > He staunchly stands by friends that no one else seems to 
like     
> > (Hagrid, Hermione).
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Huh?  Who dislikes Hermione?  And for that matter, who dislikes 
> Hagrid?

Alla:

After Rita Skeeter articles, people do dislike Hermione including 
Molly. 

 
> > Alla:
<SNIP>
> > IMO graveyard scene has a great deal to do with the argument 
whether
> > Harry LOSES any competitions, because Graveyeard scene shows me 
that
> > despite getting the Cap, Harry in essense the biggest loser after
> > the Tournament, well, no I guess he comes in second after poor
> > Cedric who lost his life. Harry loses his innocence if he had any
> > left yet, he lost the peace of mind, he was horribly tortured, 
etc.
> Magpie:
> Yes, unfortunately, that's what didn't seem directly relevent.  
It's not 
> like Harry deserves to have horrible things happen to him because 
he got 
> help in the tournament or is a Quidditch star.  We're talking 
about the 
> giving of points and the author's decision to write the 
competitions the way 
> she does.  They may have to do with each other in the sense that 
they keep 
> Harry likeable to readers, or that the author likes to give him 
lots of 
> triumphs to balance out the tragedies, but I don't think they have 
to do 
> with each within the context of the thread.


Alla:

I am not sure I follow at all. For Harry Graveyard scene is a direct 
CONTINUATION  of the Triwizard tournament, no? They are connected, 
since the only reason Fake!Moody helped Harry to get in Tournament 
was to get him to the Graveyard at some point in time.

So, I think that any division of these two events is artificial and 
it is relevant much more than just to keep Harry likeable. IMO this 
is Triwizard tournament round four ( or whatever it is) for Harry.

Without plan to get Harry to Graveyard, he would have never entered 
the Tournament at all, so to say that Harry WON the tournament when 
the "prise" was getting to Graveyard, I just don't see it at all.

To me it is clear that Harry lost and big time.

JMO,

Alla