[HPforGrownups] Re: Sportsmanship in Harry Potter / Bad Slytherins

[Karen]

No: HPFGUIDX 151801


On May 2, 2006, at 9:49 PM, horridporrid03 wrote:
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Because Harry is getting a massive amount of help compared to the
> other Champions.

kchuplis:

We have no idea what help the other champions did or did not receive  
except in regards to the dragons.  And considering the dragons, we  
can assume the other champions got plenty of help from their  
respective HM's (and in Cedric's case possibly from his father).

Betsy HP:
> He should feel a bit guilty.  It speaks well of
> him that he does feel guilty.  That he doesn't like Bagman giving
> him undeserved high scores, that he's not totally comfortable with
> Fake!Moody's little nudges.  Harry *does* have good instincts.  They
> just get undermined by Fake!Moody, who specifically works around
> Harry's guilt because he also recognizes that Harry is uncomfortable
> with all the help.

kchuplis:

But what exactly is Harry supposed to do to avoid help? Stick his  
fingers in his ears and say "LALALA I can't hear you!"? This makes no  
sense to me to damn Harry with faint praise because he feels guilty  
that people are forcing (yes, forcing) help on him. He does not  
actively seek out help. At any rate, we know that Karkaroff and  
Maxime start off giving their champions help by finding the dragons,  
so we have no reason to believe they are not doing more. So Harry is  
supposed to just go in and get slaughtered to show "character"? I  
don't think so. Whether he is the hero or not, he isn't a suicidal  
fool so not using anything that is given to him is just being some  
kind of Rule Martyr.

>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, I think Bagman is the worst of the judges.  He's actually trying
> to throw the game to make a profit.  Doesn't get much worse than
> that.  But yeah, it's definitely the judges that make sure these
> games have nothing to do with sportsmanship.  The Champions try to
> be good sportsman, and the judges make sure they don't have the
> chance.

kchuplis:

The judges behaving badly means the champions don't have an  
opportunity to show good sportsmanship? I don't get that. The  
champions all DID show sportsmanship. How were they prevented? Please  
give an instance of them being bad sports.

>
> Betsy Hp:
> As JKR's avatar, yes, Dumbledore is the worst at making sure Harry
> feels as little pain as possible when he makes the difficult
> choices.  And it keeps Harry a child.  Hence the disaster of OotP.
> By the time HBP comes around I don't think Dumbledore does anything
> to shield Harry from the harsher realities of life. Though JKR does
> step in and makes sure Harry's team wins at quidditch.  Again.

kchuplis:

Oh curses. How dare she.

>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> There's a reason Harry sees Hogwarts as his sanctuary, his home.  He
> doesn't really suffer there.  The closest he comes is PS/SS when he
> goes through that massive point loss after the Norbert incident.
> And Dumbledore provides clean-up at the end of the year so Harry's
> popularity is restored.

kchuplis:

What DD did takes nothing away from what Harry and team did. That's  
not Harry's fault. That is DD's choice. And maybe Harry's popularity  
is restored but it's  whipped away pretty quickly too (although,  
quite honestly, seeing him in scenes with other students, I don't see  
him as being overly popular. Can you cite some really supportive  
evidence (aside from Colin) where Harry is unduly loved and revered  
by students?)

> BetsyHP:
> And yeah, you're not going to sell the "whipping boy" thing for
> potions to me.  Snape is hard, he ain't that bad, IMO.  Not even
> with Harry.

kchuplis:

I guess it happens off page that Snape breaks other kids flagons of  
potion accidentally on purpose and constantly docks points from...oh,  
well, yeah, Neville. The Boy Who Could Have Been CHosen and The Boy  
Who was Chosen. I see, that makes Snape just a stern teacher. OK, you  
won't sell that to me.

BetsyHP:
>
> Yes, being pointed at by people in other houses isn't fun.  But
> Harry's core group stays true.  And when they don't (in OotP with
> the rogue Seamus) his best friend is Prefect and not afraid to throw
> his weight around.

kchuplis:

I think Harry is more than pointed at. He is often cut dead.  That's  
a Big Thing with anyone, let alone kids. If people (not just one, but  
whole departments) you work with, who you always rubbed along well  
enough with suddenly stop talking to you, avoid you, are seen peeking  
at  you and whispering about you, I'm sure you would feel just peachy  
about it because you have other real friends.  You are a better man  
than I, Gunga Din.

>
> > >>kchuplis:
> > They like it when they get to share in the glory of his winning
> > house points, or a quidditch match or whatever, but they don't
> > seem to hesitate in "casting him out", as it were, when they think
> > he is the heir of Sytherin or when he gets entered into the
> > tournament (and various other times that we kind find) in other
> > words, when Harry doesn't do something *for them*.
>
> Betsy Hp:
> See, that's absolutely true.  And Harry *always* wins.

kchuplis:

Oo. Nice swerve. So what? Harry wins at quidditch a lot. And he wins  
against LV (thank God).  How does that make students liking him *only  
if he is benefitting them* and really turning against him (I mean  
turning. These kids don't just start ignoring him, they do everything  
from cutting to out right interrogating and harranging him throughout  
the series. I guess they don't stone him. That's something anyway.)  
any easier really?  He can know that he has two friends. It doesn't  
matter half the other kids are half afraid of him and half  
contemptuous (depending on their mood). Oh, yeeeah. He can take it.  
It builds character. I forgot.

betsy HP:
> That's what
> I mean about him being sheltered.  I think he can handle the crowd
> turning on him when he loses,

kchuplis:

Of course he can. Does that make it more pleasant? A "breeze". No.

> and I think it would have been nice to
> see him do it.

kchuplis:

OK, When did we not see him "do it"? He did all the way through CoS.  
He did it halfway through GoF (til people figured out it might not be  
the "treat" they thought to be in the tournament), he did it all the  
way through OoTP. I'm not certain when we *aren't* seeing him handle it.
>
> > >>kchuplis:
> > Soooooo how much more does Harry have to do to show real moral
> > fiber?
>
> Betsy Hp:
> I'd love to see him take something and pay for it.  I mean, really,
> really, pay for it.
> Not think he's going to pay for it and then
> have Dumbledore save him.  (Ooh, hey!  Maybe that'll happen in book
> 7?)

kchuplis:

Yeah! Because, you know, being tortured and having people die in  
front of him and finding out you have to save the freakin' world from  
this hideous guy who can make you throw up from pain even when he  
isn't torturing you with a cruciatus curse and having the whole  
wizarding world think you are insane until you MAKE them see the  
truth isn't really paying for anything. I'm sorry. I think Harry pays  
plenty.


>
> > >>kchuplis:
> > He rejects evil.
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Evil killed his parents.  I'm not sure how this shows moral fiber on
> Harry's part.  I mean, yes it's good to reject evil, but it's not
> like it was a hard call on Harry's part.

kchuplis:

It is though. He could have thrown his lot in with say Draco and had  
a much easier time of it through school. He could have accepted LV's  
first invitation. Evil IS easier much of the time. I mean, that's a  
bit of the part of good vs. evil. Usually evil is a bit tempting.  
Maybe it isn't hard to reject, but that does come with a lot of pain  
much of the time.

>
> > >>kchuplis:
> > He staunchly stands by friends that no one else seems to like
> > (Hagrid, Hermione).
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Huh?  Who dislikes Hermione?  And for that matter, who dislikes
> Hagrid?
>
kchuplis:
Errr. Didn't we just have a billion threads on how Hermione doesn't  
have any girlfriends supposedly? He made Ron go with him on the troll  
front after Ron hurt her feelings. Also, I believe he spends most of  
OoTP calling people to carpet on Hagrid. He defends Hagrid  
immediately to Draco in SS/PS. He stands by him no matter what.

>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> I *know*!  He was so close!  But then the judges had to go and give
> him enough points to bump him up to second place.  They took his
> hard choice and made it easy.  Ron was upset with him for his choice
> until he realized it gave Harry the win.  It's just too darn easy.
> It undermines the entire point of the choice Harry made.
>

kchuplis:

His hard choice? How would his "choice" have been different? He would  
have gone into the maze last. Oh boy. Bet he would never have gotten  
to the cup then. Not.  It really doesn't affect Harry's choice. What  
do you mean?
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Harry has shown himself to have good character.  But it's never
> really been tested.

kchuplis:
(I can't help it.) Because you know, putting up with torturing and  
vomit causing pain and chasing basilisks to protect innocent girls  
and suffering words carved into your hand over and over and having  
people killed on account of some wierdo hates  you and still coming  
out of it sane isn't really a test.

Betsy HP:
> He's good, his friends are good, his enemies
> are bad,

kchuplis:
I'd say his enemies are a bit more than "bad". But that's just me.

BetsyHP:
> and his difficult decisions are never allowed to end in
> disaster.

kchuplis:
Yeah, murder isn't disaster. Nor the death of your godfather, or ...  
well, yeah. No disasters in Harry's life.

> Even the end of OotP gets explained away by Dumbledor
> I'd just like to see how Harry handles being wrong, or how he
> handles making a difficult (and right) choice that costs him
> something.

kchuplis:

Cause Harry has had such an easy time of it. Speaking out against the  
Ministry only cost a bit of flesh and blood and world wide (wizarding  
world wide) humiliation and ridicule (almost a year of it), doesn't  
cost him anything. Piece o' cake.