The nature of Patronuses (Patroni?)

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 152025

 juli17 wrote:
  
> What we've learned about Patronuses so far:
> 1. Therefore I surmise that somehow Harry's nature,  in
> the manner of his connection to his father (or his subconscious  
memory > of his father) influenced the configuration of his Patronus.

Potioncat:
I don't think it's so much the person's nature, as the nature of 
a "Patron" Harry's is representative of his father. Tonks's is 
representative of Remus. It sure would have been helpful to know what 
her earlier Patronus was. I doubt if Merope's would have been some 
form of the Muggle-Riddle only because there really wasn't a 
relationship there. With Tonks and Remus there was a 
romance/friendship even if Remus wasn't committing to a 
permanent/public declaration.

Does anyone know what Ginny's Patronus is? Hermione's is an otter, 
which seems to reflect a Weasley. Of course, isn't Ron's a Terrier?

>Julie:  
> 2. A wizard's Patronus can change/can be changed. In HBP Tonks has
> a new patronus. Here is the exact quote from Snape--"I was  
interested  
> to see your new Patronus...I think you were better off with the old 
one. 
> The new one looks weak." It strikes me that this statement isn't one
> hundred percent clear about how a Patronus changes. Is it Tonks  who
> initiated the change herself, or did her Patronus change in 
response  to
> some alteration of her nature--e.g. in response to her pining for  
Lupin,
> which at the time was foremost in her thoughts?

Potioncat:
Again, I wish we knew what her old one was. In this case, Snape is 
communicating something to Tonks. What Harry and the reader get is 
that the Patronus changed, and Snape isn't impressed with it. Harry 
will come to think that Sirius is the Patronus and that is what Snape 
is sneering about. Of course, Snape might have cause to sneer at a 
Lupin!Patronus too, just on general dislike.

He might be saying something else. This is a lot like the 
conversation between Snape and Lupin about the Marauders' Map (PoA) 
There's something going on beneath the surface. I think it is 
important that Tonks is one of the few people we see Snape address by 
first names. Do we know what she calls  him? She doesn't use his name 
at all in that conversation.

It's hard to know if Snape's comment was really about the Patronus or 
its form or something else entirely.



> Julie:
> The When: I can't think of any reason for JKR to introduce the
> concept of a patronus changing so late in the saga, and in such
> a brief, isolated moment (Snape mentions it, then the subject  
> never resurfaces) other than to set a foundation for the  subject's
> reappearance in Book 7, this time with plot relevance.

Potioncat:
This is one of those: "This will have to come up again" type 
situations that almost makes me think it won't. No, I really think it 
will, but there have been issues before that we fans were sure would 
be important that haven't resurfaced....although nothing specific 
comes to mind. 

> Julie: 
> What we don't know about Patronuses:
> 1. As mentioned above, can a wizard consciously change a 
> Patronus, or  does the Patronus spontaneously change in response
> to an alteration in the wizard's nature?

Potioncat:
Excpet for DD and Tonks, we've only seen kids conjure a Patronus and 
so far no one seems to have planned out the form. I think (for what 
it's worth) that the Patronus is whatever it is, just like the 
Animagus form.


>Julie:  
> (I think the answer to #2 is critical, because if a wizard can only
> create a Patronus that directly reflects his own nature/beliefs,
> then it would make sense for the Order to trust a phoenix Patronus,
> which is associated with Dumbledore and all he believes. Even
> without knowing the identity of the sender, the Order would know
> the sender has to be loyal to Dumbledore because, in a sense,
> a Patronus couldn't lie.)

Potioncat:
JKR said a Patronus was resistent to evil. Only the Order members 
know how to use the Patronus as a message. Now, I suppose Snape could 
teach someone else to cast a Patronus this way. Or maybe it's 
important that he didn't teach Patronuses to his DADA class at all. 
Is a Patronus something DEs would sneer at, like Draco sneered at 
DADA class in general? So now only the DD side can conjure them? I 
know other Wizards know about them, but how many witches and wizards 
can cast them?

Oops, I'm mixing two ideas. First, can a Message!Patronus be used for 
evil purposes? JKR said it couldn't be tampered with, but what if the 
wizard who cast it had evil intentions? I'm assuming no one in the 
Order (Pettigrew) became unable to cast one in the first war, or the 
Order would have known who was the traitor.

Second, how many DEs know how to conjure one?




> Julie: 
> 4. Since Tonks changed her Patronus, how did Snape know it was
> hers? Did she identify herself within the message? Can a wizard
> choose not to identify him/herself if that is preferred?

Potioncat:
JKR told us, just before HBP came out, that a Patronus was unique to 
the witch or wizard. Although it changed shape, something about it 
must have identified it with Tonks. Maybe it speaks in the voice of 
the one who sent it? 

> Julie: 
> 5. I've been thinking along the lines of someone else having a 
> changed Patronus in Book 7 (okay, yes, Snape!), but I also have
> been wondering why Tonks' changed Patronus wasn't identified.

Potioncat:
I think it was to pull the wool over our eyes throughout HBP. In chp 
29 is this line: "And the meaning of Tonks's Patronus and her mouse-
colored hair, and the reason she'd come running to find DD when she 
had heard a rumor someone had been attacked by Greyback, all suddenly 
became clear to Harry, it had not been Sirius that Tonks had fallen 
in love with after all."

I know Harry's PoV is not always the best guide, but this has the 
ring of authority to it.


>Julie:
> 5. Finally, will the mentioned difference in Harry's and Snape's
> approaches to repelling Dementors have significance in Book 7?

Potioncat:
It could be that Harry will save Snape, as you suggested. With all 
that mist in HBP, it might be good to know more than one way to skin 
a Dementor. Someone...I wish I remembered who...suggested that Snape 
may have chased away the Dementors in PoA without a Patronus. It's 
also interesting that we weren't told what Snape's method was.

Very good post, Julie. Lots to think about!

Potioncat