CHAPDISC HBP 15, The Unbreakable Vow

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 152057

Carol's excellent questions on Discussion Questions for ch. 15 HBP, 
The Unbreakable Vow: 

Carol:
1) What do you think of Ron's public "snogging" sessions with 
Lavender and Hermione's reaction? What about Ron's and Hermione's 
behavior in Transfiguration? What does Harry (whose thoughts are 
paraphrased by the narrator) mean by "the depths to which girls would 
sink to get revenge"? 

Ceridwen:
I didn't really notice the public snogging until you mentioned it in 
the chapter summary.  Right about then I hoped that you would ask 
what I thought.  I don't care for public displays of affection 
(PDAs).  I particularily think that communal dinnertime is neither 
the time nor the place.  I think that Hermione may justify her 
reaction on similar grounds, but she's clearly, to me, jealous.

And the same goes for Transfiguration.  Hermione laughs unkindly, Ron 
mimicks her unkindly and sends her running.  It seems to matter to 
both of them what the other thinks.

The `depths to which girls would sink to get revenge' - Hermione asks 
McLaggen to Slughorn's party when it's pretty obvious from other 
chapters that she hasn't given him much thought before.  She is doing 
this to get a dig in at Ron, period.  Getting to toss off that line 
about `good Quidditch players' was just icing on the vengeance cake, 
along with the un-Hermione-like giggling and other innuendoes.

Carol:
2) Hermione says that love potions are not Dark or dangerous, but 
Harry, the intended recipient, disagrees. How "dark" is Romilda's 
plot to get Harry to take her to Slughorn's party by, erm, potioning 
him? And how responsible are the Twins, who made and sold the love 
potions, for the uses to which the potions are put? 

Ceridwen:
Love spells and potions are `dark', in my opinion, because they 
remove a person's will.  What is the difference between Imperius, 
which forces someone to do the bidding of the caster, and a love 
potion which forces the victim to do the bidding of the potioner?

Just because the idea of a love potion is more romantic, that doesn't 
mean that it's right.  We see what using a love potion can lead to, 
if Merope did indeed use one on Tom Riddle.  They are destructive to 
the relationship as well as an affront to the victim, and they create 
more victims if there are children involved.  They can hurt the 
legitimate object of the victim's affections, too.  A bad thing all 
around, in my opinion.

For the twins, I have two opinions.  First, they have the right to 
sell anything they want to sell as long as it isn't illegal.  The 
object of a business is to make money.  Ideally, goods like love 
potions would not sell, which would make them unattractive to stock.

But the twins are shown to have a double standard.  They don't want 
Ginny buying any love potions, but they don't mind selling to other 
girls.  Apparently it hasn't crossed their minds that their brother, 
or Harry, or some other friend (or even themselves, wouldn't that be 
a comeuppance!) could fall victim to some scheming girl.  Legally, 
and businesswise, I say they're okay in selling them; morally, I 
think they're wrong.

Carol:
3) Harry expresses real interest in the Prince's notes on Everlasting 
Elixirs and defends his book against both Hermione's aspersions and 
Madam Pince's grasping hands. Is he just using the Prince's notes to 
get marks he doesn't deserve, or is he really learning more from the 
Prince than he ever learned from the adult Snape or Slughorn? How 
might this new interest in Potions, if it lasts, play out in Book 7?

Ceridwen:
I think he's learning from the Prince.  He doesn't have the same 
baggage at this point with HBP as he does with Snape, and Slughorn is 
only teaching according to a flawed text.  It could also be in part 
that he sees another student at about his age and level being excited 
over the class, which can positively influence him more than any 
teacher, given his aversion to depending on adults.

I can't imagine how this will play out in book 7 since we don't know 
why Aurors have to take N.E.W.T. Potions.  I would think that 
whatever Harry has to do to vanquish Voldemort would have something 
to do with the tasks that Aurors learn.

Carol:
4) We later learn that Madam Pince is not the only person listening 
behind the shelves: Draco is there as well. JKR is clearly misleading 
the reader with a false or incomplete explanation. Can you think of 
any other "explanations" that may be revealed as misleading in the 
future? 

Ceridwen:
Flitwick being stunned - if I recall correctly, this was Hermione's 
interpretation of what happened, while Snape told her Flitwick 
collapsed or fainted or something;  The effects of Felix Felicis - 
Debbie put up a good argument that Felix is merely a placebo and it 
might turn out that way;  the R.A.B. locket and just about everything 
surrounding it - it's raised more questions than it has answered.  
I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of anything more offhand.

Carol:
5) Just for fun, why might Harry think that Filch and Pince are in 
love? Is Harry right? 

Ceridwen:
Maybe they're counterparts in Harry's mind?  Neither one is up to a 
healer's standards as is Madam Pomphrey, both are apparently single, 
both are short with the students (at the very least!), so Harry could 
be engaging in his own version of a mental fanfic shipping moment 
here?

Carol:
6) Why do you think that Harry invited Luna to Slughorn's party? What 
does his doing so tell us about him, compared to or contrasted with 
Hermione's inviting Cormac McLaggen? Do you agree with Harry that 
Hermione got what she deserved when Cormac ambushed her under the 
mistletoe? Why or why not? 

Ceridwen:
Asking Luna was a good way to get around all the girls trying to get 
him to take them as a romantic date.  It probably seemed relaxing 
after all of the chasing going on.  He likes Luna as a friend, too, I 
think, and she hasn't pursued him.  Like Krum asking Hermione to the 
Yule Ball, in fact.

I said in another thread that I think Hermione was wrong to use 
McLaggen like this. McLaggen is a nasty sort of person, but if 
Hermione is to retain the high ground, she shouldn't invite him just 
to get back at Ron.  Since she was the one to invite him, it implied 
an interest she didn't genuinely feel.  So, any boy, but particularly 
one as self-confident (egotistical) as McLaggen would naturally think 
she was attracted to him.  She set herself up for the 
misunderstanding.  She certainly chose the wrong guy to try this 
with, misjudging him as badly as she misjudged the centuars in OotP.  
McLaggen is what they used to call a boor - he would act this way.  
While no one deserves that disrespect, she did set herself up and I 
wonder if there's a reason why she's shown to make the same sort of 
mistake twice (and barely escape both times).

Carol:
7) What do you make of Luna's conversation with Trelawney? What 
insights into Luna does this chapter provide, or is she strictly 
comic relief? And why would Slughorn invite Trelawney, of all people, 
along with his Slug Club, his celebrity guests, and his former star 
pupil, Severus Snape? Just for fun, why do you think JKR included the 
Vampire Sanguini as a party guest? 

Ceridwen:
The conversation with Trealwney shows some division between the 
teachers, even if it is all only on Trelawney's part.  Luna was 
included, I think, to specifically make the point that she 
speaks `uncomfortable truths'.  I think this is a hint to really look 
at what Luna says, that there's something in her conversation that we 
need to know.

(Reading what Trelawney says, I wonder if she might not be right, 
that Divination is important for Harry?  That's the sort of throw-
away line that comes back to haunt us later)

Slughorn may have issued a blanket invitation to the staff as a 
courtesy.  This way he can show off his important guests such as the 
author and the Weird Sisters members to his peers and gain respect.  
There were also some little old wizards smoking pipes and involved in 
what seems to be a very learned discussion, another plum for Slughorn.

I'm not sure that Snape's Slughorn's former star pupil, the way he 
goes on about Lily.  Of course, he might be trying to impress Harry 
with stories of his late mother and completely ignoring anyone else 
who was in that class.

Sanguini's inclusion may have been to stop the speculation that Snape 
was a vampire.  Notice that he gravitates toward the girls, while you 
never hear of Snape doing any such thing.  The description is also 
more extreme than Snape's - emaciated, with dark shadows under his 
eyes.  Of course, it could all be just for fun, just another 
interesting Being from the Potterverse (and who wouldn't jump at the 
chance of having a vampire at their party?)
 
Carol:
7) Why does Snape react as he does to Slughorn's statement that Harry 
is a "natural" at Potions? Are his suspicions aroused at this point? 
Do you detect any genuine affection on Slughorn's part for his 
brilliant former student, or is it all jovial bluster and too much 
mead? Did you feel any sympathy for Snape during this conversation? 
Why or why not? 

Ceridwen:
Seven, again?

Snape reacts to the news that Harry's a `natural' at Potions the way 
he does because he hasn't seen it.  I think Snape is the pessimist to 
Slughorn's optimist, he only sees the bad, while Slughorn seems to 
only see the good in the students that he favors.  Snape might have 
noticed more of Harry's abilities - and he does have abilities since 
he got an EE on his O.W.L.s - if he allowed himself to notice.  But I 
think he has very little faith in the next generation.  If Slughorn 
was not so enthusiastic toward his `prize', he might wonder why 
there's such a disconnect between the Harry in his class and the one 
Snape claims in his class.  I think both instructors are being 
illustrated here.

Yes, his suspicions seem to be aroused, though I don't think he's 
zeroed in on his old Potions book just yet.  But now he's looking for 
a reason why Harry's suddenly a Potions natural.

When Slughorn's in his networking mode, I don't think he has genuine 
affection for anybody.  His motto could be, `What Have You Done 
Lately?'  Or, what has your family done?  It isn't just bluster and 
mead, he's got the guy who replaced him and who he in turn replaced, 
in his clutches, and he intends to milk the situation to his own 
advantage.

Which is one reason why I feel sorry for Snape.  Surely Slughorn has 
checked the records of the students he admits to his N.E.W.T. 
classes, and he sees the difference between Harry in Snape's class, 
and Harry in his class.  At the least he would have wanted to see why 
Harry only got an EE rather than an O when he produces so well.  
Snape admits that he didn't think he taught Harry anything, and 
instead of saying something diplomatic like, `you must have, look at 
him now', Slughorn shouts that it's natural ability, no credit to the 
guy who taught Harry for five years.  He could easily have shouted 
after that, `This is why I'm back, folks!  Sevvie couldn't cut it!' 
and I think it would have fit in.

And, Slughorn embarrasses Snape in other ways.  He chides him 
about `skulking'; drags him into a conversation he wanted no part of -
 he must have known it was going on if he was close enough to 
be `scooped out of thin air'; he drapes his arm drunkenly around 
Snape's shoulders - when does *anyone* do that?  Not even Dumbledore -
 this may be the mead, but I think the mead's revealing pure 
Slughorn.  Even the narrator through Harry's eyes calls 
Snape `trapped'.

Carol:
8) Why does Draco claim to be "gate-crashing" when he was actually 
upstairs? Why does he look angry when Slughorn allows him to stay? 
The narrator, voicing Harry's perspective, asks: "Why was Snape 
looking at Malfoy as though both angry and . . . was it 
possible? . . . a little afraid?" How would you answer the narrator's 
(or Harry's) questions? 

Ceridwen:
Just because he was upstairs doesn't mean he wasn't trying to figure 
out a way to gate-crash.  Or, at least no one would think it was 
suspicious.  

Draco must have wanted to be dragged away so he could escape Snape, 
and get to his project again, and is surprised that Slughorn decided 
to allow him to remain.  He has other things to do, other plans to 
test and prepare.  He doesn't have time for Quidditch, and he 
certainly doesn't have time for Slughorn's party.

And, Snape knows this.  We know from `Spinner's End' that he's made a 
vow to protect, help, and ultimately complete the task.  Here's Draco 
now, caught flagrantly by Filch, with what must sound like a weak 
excuse since Snape knows at least that something is up if not what 
really is up.  I suppose the explanation relies on whether one thinks 
Snape is ESE! or DDM!  Will Draco cave and spill the beans?  Or, what 
is he working on so close to the holidays?  As an instructor, and the 
one who has already had to deal with Katie Bell's curse and the 
necklace which caused it, he may be wondering what else is coming his 
way, or to another student (or Dumbledore).  Of course, there's the 
possibility that Harry mistook another emotion for fear, but I don't 
know what that emotion might be.  To answer Harry and his narrator, I 
would just say that he might also be suspecting Draco of the necklace 
incident and wondering what else he has in the works.

Carol:
9) Draco's appearance suggests that he's suffering from stress or 
insomnia. Do you think that he was really too ill to play Quidditch 
(previous chapter)? How do you account for the change in his attitude 
toward his Head of House and former favorite professor? What 
parallels, if any, do you see between this relationship and Harry's 
with Dumbledore? 

Ceridwen:
Yes, I do think he was too ill in a way to play Quidditch in the last 
chapter.  Distraction, stress, worry, fear of failure, changing view 
of what is and is not important, more stress, can make a person's 
stomach queasy.  It will certainly affect his ability to attend to 
the game the way he should.

I would put stress as one major cause of his mistrust of Snape.  His 
mother and aunt both thought that they were sneaking around behind 
Voldemort's back to go to Snape; Draco could have been told not to 
talk about his mission and here's Snape, sticking his nose into 
things.  This is something he has to do alone, this is his growing up 
and away from the shadow of his parents and his adult `baby 
sitters'.  I'm not sure that Draco knows yet that his family is in 
jeopardy.  It's possible, but he was just a hair too cocky at the 
beginning of the term, in my opinion, for him to know it yet.  But 
it's still something he knows he has to do on his own, and he resents 
the intrusion, and fights against it.

I think Harry went through similar in OotP.  He mistrusted 
everything, and had Dumbledore not even looking at him, avoiding 
him.  He had to go it alone, because he couldn't trust anyone.  It 
seemed, for Harry, that people turned their backs on him.  The 
reasons may have been different for the rebellious stage, but the 
outcomes were the same.  Also, Harry continues to mature in his 
relationship with DD through HBP, down to doing what he was told 
without (much) question.  I think Draco will mirror Harry with Snape 
in book 7.

Carol:
10) Clearly, Crabbe and Goyle are not taking NEWT DADA with Harry and 
Draco.  Might they be repeating fifth-year DADA (rather than taking 
no DADA class at all), and could they, theoretically, repeat their 
DADA OWLs as Snape implies? What, if anything, does this detail tell 
us about Snape's attitude toward DADA? Is he really concerned about 
Crabbe's and Goyle's DADA OWLs? What is he trying to accomplish by 
putting them in detention? 

Ceridwen:
We don't hear about remedial lessons or students being kept back 
(except for poor Flint?) in the series.  But it stands to reason that 
there must be some sort of mechanism for floundering students.  It 
would be more embarrassing for them to be in the fifth year class, 
but the WW has never impressed me as being big on coddling kids and 
their psyches.  Also, if Snape says they'll repeat their O.W.L.s, it 
must happen occasionally or Draco would have used that as a lever for 
scoffing.  He grabs everything else!

If this tells us anything about Snape's attitude, and I think it does 
based on his conversation with Draco, then he believes in the 
necessity of the class, for whatever reason.  If he's DDM! he would 
see it as necessary, of course.  And moreso for Draco, since he's 
already in Voldemort's ideological clutches and perhaps feeling 
trapped and wanting out.  If he's ESE! it would definitely be a case 
of knowing one's enemy and the tactics they might use.  Countries use 
the study of their adversaries' methods, why not someone who 
apparently likes logic the way Snape does?

Snape is putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention, I think, mainly to 
keep them from being used by Draco, either inconveniencing Draco, 
saving Crabbe and Goyle from becoming accessories, or both.

Carol:
11) What do you make of Draco's contempt for DADA, his attempt at 
Occlumency, his reaction to Snape's Unbreakable Vow, and his 
accusation that Snape is trying to steal his glory? How successful 
are his attempts to evade Snape's questions? What, if anything, does 
Snape learn from Draco's answers?

Ceridwen:
Draco doesn't think that knowing how to defend against Dark Arts is 
for people who use Dark Arts.  He isn't thinking deeply enough, but 
that's a common failing of youth.  His attempt at Occlumency didn't 
work seamlessly - Snape was able to detect it, and knows who has been 
teaching him.  Draco had better not try it with Voldemort, that's all 
I can say about that as it stands in this chapter.  (Could this be 
why Voldemort threatened Draco's family at Christmas, as I think he 
did?  Draco was unable to hide that he wanted to give up?)  I think 
Draco discounts the possible danger Snape put himself in by taking 
the UV (I'm not convinced that Ron was right about the penalties).  I 
think he also saw it as his family bringing in someone to coddle 
him.  And as a DE (wannabe, I don't think Draco was fully initiated 
yet, this would be his hazing), Draco would be watchful for someone 
out to steal his glory.  The DEs don't seem like a trusting bunch, 
for good reason - LV plays them all against one another for the 
coveted position of favorite of the week.

And, I don't think Draco was very successful at avoiding Snape's 
questions.  Snape learned that Draco is very stressed, pretty much at 
the end of that one last irritated nerve.  He learns that Draco will 
not cooperate with any attempts to help him, and that things are 
pretty bad because of it.

Carol:
12) Snape changes tactics several times during the interview. How and 
why? Are these changes an indication of weakness or strength? Do any 
of his statements or questions seem deliberately ambiguous or 
misleading? How does this conversation tie in with, or affect your 
understanding of, "Spinner's End"? 

Ceridwen:
Snape starts by being friendly but firm, and mentioning expulsion.  
He uses interrogatives, he reminds Draco that he has given him breaks 
by overlooking Draco's not coming to his office when sent for.  He's 
very patient with Draco's jeering and rudeness.  He uses Draco's 
given name in a way implying closeness and being on the same side.  
When Draco gives Snape an ultimatum - `You'd better stop telling me 
to come to your office, then!' - Snape lowers his voice and puts more 
emphasis on what he is telling Draco.  He gives him more information, 
the UV, but it's probably too late at this point.  It sounds like 
Snape and Draco's *own mother* are colluding against him.  Snape 
questions him then, but is unsuccessful.  He's still trying to be 
friendly, but is becoming more direct.  He points out where Draco has 
given himself the lie of having confederates.  He is getting upset 
himself - Draco is upset already and starting to talk loudly.  Snape 
goes through the list of things he's done, and the things Draco 
hasn't done, probably talking faster now and not trying to be nice or 
mean either one.  He goes back to almost wheedling to get 
information, but Draco accuses him of wanting to steal his glory, 
which makes Snape answer coldly.  This is when he brings up Lucius's 
imprisonment.  I don't think he's trying to be understanding, he's 
just stating facts as he sees them now.  I think he is at the end of 
his patience.  Only Draco reached that point first.  Draco rushes 
off, apparently upset.  Snape comes out thoughtfully - moving slowly 
and with an `unfathomable' expression.  In my opinion, Snape sounds 
very parental in this exchange.

The changes occur after certain of Draco's outbursts, and I think are 
reactions to the way the conversation is going.  Snape insinuates 
that he is Draco's better in the DEs, and it sounds like he is saying 
that he is Draco's master.  (?.. !)  Draco sets him straight, he 
isn't concealing anything from his *master*, only from Snape.  
Ambiguous?  How about, `Where do you think I would have been all 
these years, if I had not known how to act?'  To Draco, and probably 
to Harry, this means that he's a DE who has been pulling the wool 
over Dumbledore's eyes all this time; if he is DDM!, then he has been 
using his skills at Defense Against the Dark Arts to get around 
Voldemort much better than Draco has been doing.

This chapter just reinforced that Snape is doing what he promised in 
Spinner's End, but Draco is blocking him, something no one seemed to 
foresee.  The infamous spanner or monkey wrench in the works, what 
usually happens to the best-laid plans of mice and men.

Carol:
13) Snape's expression is twice referred to as "unfathomable" 
or "inscrutable." What does this description suggest to you? Why does 
Snape return to the party rather than following Draco? 

Ceridwen:
I think it means that Snape is thinking about something.  I'm almost 
positive this is the reason he's `unfathomable' when he goes back to 
the party.  He has a lot to think over, to see if there are any 
nuances in Draco's retorts that will tell him anything.  The first 
time, when Draco was brought in by Filch, Harry caught him looking at 
Draco both angry and, possibly, afraid.  He is hiding his emotions 
before he is caught.  He doesn't seem to know that Harry saw.

Carol:
14) How did this chapter affect your views on where Snape's loyalties 
lie? Why do you think the chapter is titled "The Unbreakable Vow" 
when the vow is barely mentioned? 

Ceridwen:
At this point, Snape's loyalties are not in evidence at all, except 
to Draco and to the vow.  The vow was important because this chapter 
shows Snape trying to comply with it almost desperately, and it 
brings the vow to Harry's notice so that he asks about it and we get 
information.

Carol, thanking Penapart Elf, Siriusly Snapey Susan, and Potioncat 
for their comments and suggestions 

Ceridwen, thanking Carol for a good summary and challenging 
questions, and asking exactly how many feet of parchment Carol was 
expecting *g*.