CHAPDISC HBP 15, The Unbreakable Vow

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 152155

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...>
wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter
> 15, The Unbreakable Vow.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1) What do you think of Ron's public "snogging" sessions with
> Lavender and Hermione's reaction? What about Ron's and Hermione's 
> behavior in Transfiguration? What does Harry ... mean by "the 
> depths to which girls would sink to get revenge"?
> 

bboyminn:

I thought all of Ron's snogging was hilarious. He took Ginny's advise
to heart and seized the most readily available source of that much
needed experience. However, he learned very quickly that his
relationship with Lavender doesn't come without a price. If he is
going to 'snog' her, then she expects him to be her boyfriend and to
ack like it. Ron, being a typical boy is interested in the practical
physical aspects, but not so much the 'lovey-dovey' part of it. The
'lovey-dovey' and boyfriend aspect quickly wear thin and start to
drive Ron away. Not having any experience in these matters, Ron
doesn't have a clue how to end it.

Like all men Harry and Ron clearly don't understand women, especially
when it come to romance. Kids that age can be cruel even to their
friends, and I think we are seeing a combination of these two things;
a lack of understanding and a youthful sense of cruelty. Hermione
feels hurt and the only way she has to expess that hurt is to hurt
back in some way. 

> 2) Hermione says that love potions are not Dark or dangerous, 
> but Harry, the intended recipient, disagrees. How "dark" is 
> Romilda's plot to get Harry to take her to Slughorn's party by,
> erm, potioning him? And how responsible are the Twins, who made
> and sold the love potions, for the uses to which the potions are
> put?
>

bboyminn:

Well, the use of Love Potions is 'dark' in that it isn't very nice,
but I don't think it is 'Dark' as in evil. It is not a very nice or
ethical thing to do, but depending on your intent, it could be a
hilariously cruel practical joke seeing a friend making a complete
fool out of himself for an hour or two. 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that their could be some somewhat
legitimate uses for love potions, but they can also be somewhat cruel,
and can be used in somewhat unethical ways. I think in their own
minds, Fred and George are placing the responsibility on the user as a
way of abdicating their own responsibility.

> 3) Harry expresses real interest in the Prince's notes on 
> Everlasting Elixirs and defends his book ... Is he just using the
> Prince's notes to get marks he doesn't deserve, or is he really 
> learning more from the Prince than he ever learned from the adult 
> Snape or Slughorn? How might this new interest in Potions, if it 
> lasts, play out in Book 7?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Harry is learning that when left alone and unharassed, and
given a proper set of instructions, he is quite capable of brewing
potions effectively. I don't consider what Harry does as cheating. All
the students are taking their instructions from a book. So this is not
a test, using a book is not cheating.

I've said before that I think Harry using an outside reference is
probably well within the bounds of what would be allowed. Let's take a
hypothetical, and assume you know you are going to take potion, and
you also know that you have stuggled with it in the past. Let's us
further assume you have reviewed the assigned textbook and found it
somewhat out of date. I can't see any reason why you couldn't seek out
the most up-to-date reference book on potions and use it as a suppliment. 

The students at Hogwarts have a very extensive library to aid them in
their studies. If they know a particular Charm is coming up in Charms
class, it is certainly not cheating to look up that Charm in several
reference books in the library before attempting it in class. I don't
see what Harry is doing as being any different than that. He is simply
consulting supplimentary reference information on brewing potions, and
apparently a supplimental reference that is far more accurate and
up-to-date than the outmoded textbook that Slughorn has assigned. 

By having better working conditions and by having better reference
material, Harry is able to brew better potions, and he is certainly
learning from that experience. I think any other kid in the same class
would be allowed to bring other reference material to class, so again,
I don't see what Harry is doing as cheating. 

> 4) We later learn that Madam Pince is not the only person 
> listening behind the shelves: Draco is there as well. JKR is 
> clearly misleading the reader with a false or incomplete 
> explanation. Can you think of any other "explanations" that may
> be revealed as misleading in the future?
>

bboyminn:

I confess I completely missed the connection to Draco listening. I
even scanned the books trying to find where the information is
revealed but was at a loss. 

As to 'other' misleading explanation, I think it is safe to say that
frequently in JKR's world things are not what they seem, and there
will be plenty of stunning revelation in the next and final book.

 
> 5) Just for fun, why might Harry think that Filch and Pince are in
> love? Is Harry right?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Harry was just making a snide comment, in a sense tying
together two people he found barking mad.  Yet, one never knows they
could be getting hot and heavy between the shelves when no one is looking.


> 6) Why do you think that Harry invited Luna to Slughorn's party?
> What does his doing so tell us about him, compared to or 
> contrasted with Hermione's inviting Cormac McLaggen? Do you 
> agree with Harry that Hermione got what she deserved when Cormac 
> ambushed her under the mistletoe? Why or why not?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Harry asked Luna because Luna's responses to him have always
been honest and open. She does not want anything from him, and while
well aware of his fame and to some extent impressed by it, she isn't
attracked to the fame. She accepts Harry as just Harry. I think Harry
find comfort in Luna's honesty and I think he asked her because she is
the one person he can trust not to have ulterior motives in accepting.

As far as Hermione, I think she certainly got what she deserved in
asking McLaggen. She picked the person she thought would most annoy
Ron forgetting that there was a very good reason why Ron and everyone
else was generally annoyed by McLaggen; he's very annoying.


> 7) What do you make of Luna's conversation with Trelawney? What
> insights into Luna does this chapter provide, or is she strictly 
> comic relief? And why would Slughorn invite Trelawney, of all 
> people, along with his Slug Club, his celebrity guests, and his 
> former star pupil, Severus Snape? Just for fun, why do you think
> JKR included the Vampire Sanguini as a party guest?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Trelawney was at the party because all the staff were invited.
It was a Christmas Party and a chance for Slughorn to impress everyone
with his connections. 

To some extent I think Luna and Trelawney's conversation was just
'filler'. It was a party and needed a range of pary-type interactions
of people. I think this was also true of the Vampire, just interesting
Party filler. We know Vampires exist in the wizard world, and this was
a convinient and fun way to meet one. He acted just like I assumed he
would act. As a late note; I have already pointed out the connection
between the name Sanguini (sanguine) and the connection to blood. It's
typical JKR to name a vampire, in a sense, 'blood'. 

> 7) Why does Snape react as he does to Slughorn's statement that
> Harry is a "natural" at Potions? Are his suspicions aroused at 
> this point? Do you detect any genuine affection on Slughorn's 
> part for his brilliant former student, or is it all jovial 
> bluster and too much mead? Did you feel any sympathy for Snape 
> during this conversation? Why or why not?
> 

bboyminn:

I think we have seen several examples in several books that indicate
if left alone and unharassed Harry is quite capable of brewing
potions. Notice that Harry did get an 'E' (equivalent to a muggle 'B')
in his potions OWL. Even Neville does a reasonable job if Snape isn't
breathing down his neck. But at the same time, Snape would certainly
and logically be suspicious of Harry's success.

It's clear Snape is a brilliant potions maker, and I think Slughorn
admires him for that. But I don't think Snape is too comfortable with
the admiration. I think Snape likes the quiet life, he doesn't like
being in the public eye very much. So, I do feel some small shred of
sympathy for Snape since he is clearly uncomfortable in the situation.
But, it is Snape's job to gather information, and I think he finds the
information he is getting in the coversation to be very interesting. 

I will admit however, that I suspect that Snape finds it very
suspicious that Harry is finally the darling of potions class. I'm
sure he wonders how that can be. 


> 8) Why does Draco claim to be "gate-crashing" when he was actually
> upstairs? Why does he look angry when Slughorn allows him to stay?
> The narrator, voicing Harry's perspective, asks: "Why was Snape 
> looking at Malfoy as though both angry and . . . was it possible? . 
> . . a little afraid?" How would you answer the narrator's (or 
> Harry's) questions?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Draco finds 'gate-crashing' a very convinient excuss for
lurking about the hallway. Though you are right, Draco was lurking no
where near the party. I think he is hoping Slughorn will throw him
out, and he can then get back to his work. The party was a perfect
opportunity to continue that work, students and teachers were busy at
the party, and the noise and distraction was the perfect cover for
Draco's activities. 

I think Snape and Dumbledore know Draco is up to no good, but they
really don't have any evidence that they can use against him. They
suspect he is responsible for two attempts at murder, but suspicious
are not proof, so there is not much they can do.

Snape is angry and a little afraid because up to that point he has
been unable to get Draco's cooperation, and because he's afraid of
what will happen when Draco completes his mission. What if that very
night is the night Draco intends to bring Death Eaters in the castle?
He certainly has every valid reason to be angry and afraid.


> 9) Draco's appearance suggests that he's suffering from stress
> or insomnia. Do you think that he was really too ill to play 
> Quidditch(previous chapter)? How do you account for the change
> in his attitude toward his Head of House and former favorite 
> professor? What parallels, if any, do you see between this 
> relationship and Harry's with Dumbledore?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Draco is finding the reality of being a Death Eater as being
quite different than the romantic notions he has conjured up in his
mind. I have said in the past that in Draco's mind he probably saw
himself and his father standing shoulder to shoulder with Voldemort on
a high balcony while the adoring crowds below bow down to them. Now he
is finding that to be a Death Eater is bowing and scarping, and doing
even the most menial task under the constant threat of torture or death. 

I speculated that Draco came to Voldemort with his idea for a way to
get into the Castle. He never imagined Voldemort would heap the
additional task of personally killing Dumbledore to it. Yet, he can't
refuse. Voldemort as good as said that if Draco fails, Draco and his
family will die, and that is a lot of pressure. The pressure and
consequences of potential failure are weighing extremely heavy on
Draco. I'm surprised he made it to the end of the book without collapsing.

> 10) Clearly, Crabbe and Goyle are not taking NEWT DADA with Harry
> and Draco. Might they be repeating fifth-year DADA ..., and could 
> they, theoretically, repeat their DADA OWLs as Snape implies? What,
> if anything, does this detail tell us about Snape's attitude toward 
> DADA? Is he really concerned about Crabbe's and Goyle's DADA OWLs? 
> What is he trying to accomplish by putting them in detention?
> 

bboyminn:

I think OWLs are very important. It's very hard to move forward in
life without them. So, I suspect that repeating an OWL level class is
something the school would extend to anyone who requested it. I don't
see it as special treatment of Crabbe and Goyle. 

I think Snape sees DADA as very important, and it seems reasonable
that Crabbe and Goyle would want to at least pass that OWL. To not do
so would imply that they are completely incapable of defending
themselves against magical attack. That would seem disgracefull in the
wizard world. So, to keep from being a laughing stock, they must at
least scape a passing grade in the class.

I think Snape put them in detention for the obious reason, they
deserved it, but also because I think he is trying to deny Draco his
resouces. It's clear from their conversation that Snape has been
trying to get Draco to come and talk to him. Perhaps he thought using
detention would be a way of compelling Draco to talk to him. 


> 11) What do you make of Draco's contempt for DADA, his attempt 
> at Occlumency, his reaction to Snape's Unbreakable Vow, and his
> accusation that Snape is trying to steal his glory? How 
> successful are his attempts to evade Snape's questions? What, if 
> anything, does Snape learn from Draco's answers?
> 

bboyminn:

Let's remember that DADA is Defense Against DARK ARTS. Draco sees
himself as a practitioner of the Dark Art, and further backed up by a
gang of 'Dark Artists' in the very near future. Why protect yourself
against your own allies? Why protect yourself against something from
which you preceive yourself as having nothing to fear. Draco distains
Defense Against Dark Arts because he sees Dark Arts as his most
powerful ally.

As far as the 'steal his glory' comment. Draco knows, or at least
believes, that if he is successful at defeating Dumbledore, he will
become Voldemort 'darling'. He will have Voldemort's favor and with
that comes great power. Again, Draco hasn't abandon all his romantic
notions about being a Death Eater. Knowing this is probably his one
chance to gain and hold great power, Draco is reluctant to share it
with anyone. To some extent this is Draco being a typical naive 16
year old boy. He simply doesn't have enough life perspective to truly
understand what is happening. 

What Snape learns for the conversation is that Draco is a dangerous
little boy who doesn't completely understand that he is playing with
the big boys now. 


> 12) Snape changes tactics several times during the interview. 
> How and why? Are these changes an indication of weakness or 
> strength? Do any of his statements or questions seem 
> deliberately ambiguous or misleading? How does this conversation
> tie in with, or affect your understanding of, "Spinner's End"?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Snape is genuinely concerned about helping and protecting
Draco, and I think that concern is independant of the Unbreakable Vow.
I think Snape, relative to Draco, would have acted the same with or
without the Vow. Snape seen the fallacy of supporting Voldemort, and I
think he hopes he can gradually get Draco to see it as well. But
Draco, as I said before, is still trapped in his romantic notions of
power and glory to clearly see how doomed the world will be if
Voldemort wins. 

But Snape must be very cautious. He can't come right out and tell
Draco he is an idiot. If Snape wants to maintain his spy status, he
needs to convert Draco in a very slow and cautious process. I think
that now that Draco sees the true darkness of being a Death Eater, and
now that he has heard Dumbledore's offer of protection, the ground
work has been laid for Snape to convert Draco.

I think when Snape, Draco, and Voldemort meet again, Snape will defend
Draco by pointing out that it was unrealistic to expect Draco to be
able to kill Dumbledore. However, Draco's help was invaluable in
getting the DE's into the Castle so that Dumbledore could be killed.
He, Draco, has performed valuable service to the Dark Lord, and that
should be taken into consideration. A brief Crucio and Draco is put
under Snape's watchful eye and tutelage where he can begin the
conversion process.


> 13) Snape's expression is twice referred to as "unfathomable" or
> "inscrutable." What does this description suggest to you? Why does
> Snape return to the party rather than following Draco?
> 

bboyminn:

Snape is a spy, and he makes his living and more importantly stays
alive by making sure no one knows what he is doing or thinking. So
Snape's unfathomable and inscrutable look is a very well practiced
defense mechanism.

I think Snape return to the party because he senses that Draco has
given up tonights efforts as a bad job. He is being to closely watch,
has drawn far too much attention to himself to continue his work that
night. So, Snape feels confident that he can leave Draco. It's also
possible that Snape asked Filch to watch that specific hallway and
allert him to any activity he found there. So, Filch's presence is
also a deterent to Draco continuing his activities that particular night.

> 14) How did this chapter affect your views on where Snape's 
> loyalties lie? Why do you think the chapter is titled "The 
> Unbreakable Vow" when the vow is barely mentioned?
> 

bboyminn:

As unbelievable as I find it, the minute Snape killed Dumbledore, I
was sure that Snape was Dumbledore's man. Seems illogical I know.
Snape's action here are two fold, first he has a SERIOUS interest in
protecting Draco because of the Unbreakable Vow, and second, I think
he is genuinely trying to get information of Draco's action so he can
give it to Dumbledore. Again, I point out that they have suspicions of
what Draco might be up to, but they have no confirmation and no proof.
The need much more solid evidence in order to be able to take any
actions against Draco, or to formulate a counter attack to what Draco
is planning.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn