[HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny Haters/ a bit of Draco

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 152224

bboyminn:

I really can't see Voldemort initially telling Draco to kill
Dumbledore, then later Draco comes up with a plan. Why would he do
that? He couldn't possibly expect Draco to accomplish such an
impossible task.

Magpie:
Voldemort doesn't expect Draco to accomplish such an impossible task.  That 
is exactly what we're told in canon, the plot of the book revolves around 
this set up.  Draco is supposed to fail and die in the attempt.  Voldemort's 
plan is not for Draco to kill Dumbledore but for Lucius to be punished when 
his son is killed trying to do something he in no way is going to be able to 
do.

bboyminn:

So, once again, I say that Voldemort has always wanted to kill
Dumbledore, but he has never acted because he never felt he had an
effective plan. Draco provides the seed from which Voldemort's plan
grows.

Magpie:
Dumbledore is killed by Snape who needs no Cabinets to get into Hogwarts. 
Getting people into Hogwarts has never been the thing standing between 
killing Dumbledore or not.  Draco feels, and perhaps others feel, that if 
Draco would be able to kill Dumbledore he would need backup, but Snape 
doesn't necessarily have that issue.  The DEs don't kill Dumbledore at all.

bboyminn

In my view, it seems too irrational and pointless to start the plan by
initially telling Draco to kill Dumbledore. That is a plan with no
hope of success.You are right, there is an element of vengence in 
Voldemort's plan.

Magpie:
Which is exactly what the plan is supposed to be, as we are told in canon. 
It is not supposed to be a success.  Voldemort's plan is for Draco to die, 
not for Dumbledore to die at the hand of Draco.  There is not "an element" 
of vengeance, the plan is about vengeance.

bboyminn:
But Voldemort also knows that if only the first part
of Draco's plan works, Voldemort will still have DE's as well as Snape
in the Castle. If they have Dumbledore in a vulnerable position then
any of them can perform the coup de grce. So, Voldemort really only
needs Draco to half succeed in order for his plan to succeed.

Magpie:
No, he needs to have the DEs there for *your* plan to succeed.  Voldemort's 
plan, as told to us by a number of people in canon, is to punish Lucius 
Malfoy by setting up his son to be killed.  His son, of course, has his own 
ideas about surprising everyone and succeeding.  The only person we ever 
hear as someone Voldemort potentially wants to murder Dumbledore is Snape, 
who is already in the castle.

bboyminn:
So, while you do raise some interesting and valid points, it makes, to
my mind, far more sense to start with entrances into the castle and
build from there, rather than start with the wholly impossible task of
killing Dumbledore, and proceed from there.

Magpie:
But that's because you are forming your own plan that goes against canon, 
and expecting Voldemort to follow reader logic is always tricky at best. 
Dumbledore's winding up dead does not mean that that was the point of 
Voldemort's plan.  On the contrary, canon immediately loads that action with 
competing motivations of different people.

-m