Ginny's Behavior/Ginny Haters

[inufan_625]

No: HPFGUIDX 152370

Phoenixgod:
Oh, well that makes it okay then. 'Cause what we want to encourage 
is more teenagers taken things into their own hands and showing no
consequences or punishments as a result of their actions.

Inufan_625:
Just because we don't see Ginny being punished doesn't mean it never 
happens, and yes sometimes you should encourage your children to 
stand up for themselves, not necessarily physically but at least 
vocally. We also know that Ginny expected Slughorn to punish her
for cursng Zacharias. It isn't her fault that he chooses not to and 
it is possibly that the `irate' looking McGonagall from the quidditch
pitch assigns Ginny a punishment outside of Harry's hearing or vision.

Phoenixgod:
Pesky opinions you aren't allowed to have. Regardless of whether he
was right or wrong, he is allowed to have an opinion and not be
assaulted for it. And for me, my problem with the scene isn't so much
that it happens, but that we are supposed to like it and see it as
something cool and spunky instead of the bullyish action it actually
was--the second piece of bullying we saw directed at Zack Smith by
Ginny.

Inufan_625:
Actually Smith can think whatever he wants, but as it has been 
stated previously he should not have stated those opinions when he 
was supposed to be providing commentary on the game. Could Ginny 
have handled the situation better, yes, but that doesn't distract 
from the fact that he insulted her, her family, and her team in 
front of the whole school. She acted rashly and lost her temper. 
Everyone in the books has done that, so why is Ginny hated for it 
where others are revered. (I.e. Hermione slapping Draco...)

Phoenixgod:
Yes, it can't possibly be petty jealousy over a preturnaturally
beautiful woman going at her big brother and stealing him away from
the only girl of the family. Ginny doesn't have nasty feelings like
that. She is above those sorts of things.

Honestly the most insulting thing about Fleur/Ginny bit is that once
again we are supposed to see the Phlegm nickname as funny. And it
isn't. Its stupid. The twins are funny. Ron is funny. Harry is funny.
Dumbledore is funny. Luna is funny. JKR can write funny.

Ginny is not funny.

Inufan_625:
Harry finds Ginny funny. There are many occasions in the book where
he laughs at her jokes and they share private looks of amusement. Yes
her humor can be a bit unkind, but so can Ron's and Harry's. They
share the same dark sense of humor, which Harry used as a survival
mechanism his whole life. It gives them further common ground.

What I find insulting is Fleur's attitude towards her soon to be
family and their way of life. Her making fun of Mrs. Weasley's
favorite music and acting so put out for having to listen to it for a
little while is just as out of bounds as Ginny calling her names, and
let us not forget that both Hermione and Mrs. Weasley act much the
same towards the part veela.

While I can concede that a bit of Ginny and her mother's distaste for
Bill's soon to be bride stems from the feeling that they are losing
a brother/son it is also her attitude that irks them. No one claims
Ginny to be above petty feelings or nasty things, merely that they 
are natural feelings for a 15 year old girl.

I also found Phlegm to be a stupid nickname though...

Phoenixgod:
We know that Luna says that. We also never see it happen. We do
however see Ginny call Luna Loony when she isn't around. The only
people we see stick up for Luna is Harry and Ron. Once again, Ginny
is all talk and no follow through--a repeating problem in HBP and
OOTP.

Inufan_625: 
Why would Luna lie about Ginny sticking up for her and getting people 
to stop calling her Loony.  Luna says it because it is true and again 
all of the gang call her Loony at least once and yet it is Ginny who 
gets castigated for it.

Phoenixgod:
We hear litanies about Ginny's power and mastery of cursing but we
never see either in action and she is in fact dropped pretty fast
during the minstry action.  We hear about how funny she is and she
does nothing that makes me laugh in the entire book. We hear how she
is a great friend to Luna and we don't see a single example of that.

Ginny, and by extension, JKR, who is always talking her up, is trying
way too hard. We don't need any interviews telling us how fantasic a
wizard DD is. He oozes his might in every scene, from the quiet to
the comical to the battles.  We shouldn't have to get interviews
explaining why she is so powerful and perfect for Harry. It should be
obvious on the page. And it isn't. And for a not insignificant part
of the fandom, Ginny isn't even all that likeable--let alone Harry's
equal.

Inufan_625:
Everyone but Neville and Harry are dropped fast at the DOM and of the
group a broken ankle seems a bit insignificant to a nearly fatal chest
wound and nearly being choked to death by brains, and it is not made
clear whether or not Luna's reductor curse played a part in Ginny's
injury. 

Everyone has their own sense of humor and I did find several things
Ginny says and does funny in the book. You did not and that's just a
difference in humor, neither of us are alone in that.

JKR tells us Ginny is powerful and she is the author so I chose to
believe her. Ginny has really only just come into her own in the books
and I am sure that we will see some of this power in book 7. After all
Slughorn would not have invited her to the Slug Club if he didn't see
potential in her to be a great witch from her hex work and he would
know. I don't see why people can so easily dismiss JKR's words.
		
Phoenixgod:
How many instances in the book can you name where we saw Ginny stick
up for the little guy, or fought a bad guy to protect someone weaker
than herself? Not heard about second hand from a character or through
an authors interview, but actually saw it in the books?

I can think of exactly one in six books.

Inufan_625:
You cannot discount Luna telling Harry that Ginny stuck up for her
just because it happened off page. Luna mentions it because JKR wants
the readers to know that it happened. It is canon. Luna would have no
reason to lie about this. She also sticks up for Neville, with
himself, but does it none the less. "You're not nobody" Regardless as
to whether or not Sirius was in danger she went to the DOM with the
intent of helping him and fighting the bad guys holding him. 

Phoenixgod:
Harry has more instrument of Justice in an eyelash than Ginny has
ever displayed. She's too busy being petty and mean.

Inufan_625:
Petty and mean? I don't see it. Rash and temperamental, definitely.

Phoenixgod:
Yes, and if my sister had used the ammo on me that Ginny used on Ron,
I would have done far worse than he does.  Ginny was LOW in that
scene.

Inufan_625:
If I called my sister out in front of a room full of people or in
front of my long time crush I would expect her to do no less than
Ginny.  Ron implying Ginny was a slut for going out with ONE guy A
YEAR was low in my opinion and they were both at fault for trying to
hurt each other. Ron could have and should have been far more tactful.

I am the oldest of five and I would have had a huge head to head with
any of my siblings for acting like either Ron or Ginny towards me. It
wouldn't have been right or pretty but it would have been real life.


Betsy Hp: 
Ron had every right.  He's her older brother, and she was putting 
herself into a position to earn those sort of nicknames.  It was his 
duty as the elder sibling to call her on her behavior. <snip>

Making out with one of those boyfriends in a public, and popularly 
traveled hallway.  <snip>

Inufan_625:
First of all Ron is Ginny's brother and not her father. Yes, he should
look out for her but he doesn't own her nor does he have any right
to boss her around. Siblings are not responsible for disciplining
their younger brothers and sisters, that is the parents job alone. Ron
handled the situation poorly and Ginny did in kind. They were both
wrong but neither was worse than the other. You all seem to forget
that the corridor was "deserted" before Ron and Harry came along and
she was in a shortcut behind a tapestry, not exactly a high traffic 
area.

Betsy Hp:
<snip> I went to highschool with one of my younger sisters and I 
would have called her on that sort of behavior too.  It's what older 
siblings do. And, quite frankly, it's what parents expect older 
sibling to do.

Gerry:
Besides, the idea that elder brothers are somehow responsible and
justified to control their younger sibblings behaviour is 
reprehensible. <snip>

Well, if I would have had an older brother like Ron I would have
treated him much worse than Ginny. He was awful, patriarchal, and
behaving like he belonged in the Victorian age. He needed his
comeuppance and needed it badly.

<snip>

Inufan_625:
Well said, Gerry.

I reiterate, yes, older sibs should watch out for younger sibs but not
stifle them and try to control them. I am the oldest but I never would
have dreamed of calling any of my younger siblings out in such a way.
It is one thing to guide and to lead by example and quite another to
try and parent. If Ron really thought Ginny was such a problem why
didn't he write to their mother? It troubles me that you who agree
with Ron think it is acceptable for an older sibling to govern the
life of a younger one and to insinuate that said sister is slut for
dating two guys in two years.

Ron was out of line and I stand by that, just as I stand by the fact
that Ginny was wrong to strike out at him in anger with the snogging
comments, but again that is typical teenage behavior and not in itself
a basis to judge one character worse than another.

Gerry:
The only person who had issues was Ron himself, which had a lot
more to do with him not being popular with the girls.

Betsy Hp:
Where on earth do you get that idea?  Ron isn't experienced, true.
But he's got Lavander giggling and whispering with her friends when
he walks by.  That suggests that he's seen as a bit of stud.  He
just hasn't bothered to take advantage of that fact.  Yet.


Inufan_625:
Ron a bit of a stud because one girl is giggling over him??? He
certainly wasn't a stud at the Yule ball when his date didn't get a
single dance. Harry had far more girls giggling over him in HBP.
Lavender isn't the measure of all female opinion at Hogwarts.

Gerry:
And it was all over when he finally had his own girlfriend. We
don't find Ron mentioning Ginny having extensive snogging sessions
in the common room, yet guess who does...

Betsy Hp:
And that's because Ron doesn't have any older siblings of his own at
Hogwarts anymore.  But yeah, Ron was hypocritical there.  Though
I'm betting he'd have *still* said something if Ginny and Dean
started making out in the common room.  Not fair, but that's life. 

Inufan_625: 
So it's okay for Ron to be a hypocrite and yet it's wrong from Ginny
to rail against his hypocracy??? I think not. Life may not be fair but
Ginny has every right to be upset by such a blatant double standard.
Are you honestly saying that Ginny should be meek and timid and go
along with it because life's not fair? Change is spurned by those who
stand up in the face of injustice. Granted her methods are not always
the best but at least she isn't content to let herself be held back by
such BS. 

Betsy Hp:
Boys think she's pretty, but that's about all we see as far as Ginny 
being popular.  As for likable, I guess she could be, once she gets 
that massive chip off her shoulder.  At the moment she's a bit too 
likely to throw a punch (or a hex) to be called likable.

I'd say the only reason we're supposed to think Ginny is this
wonderful girl is based on JKR's interviews.  There's little in the
actual canon to say that she's wonderful.  But there's a lot to show
that she's got some major issues that need to be dealt with.  Again,
every time Ginny unleashes she hurts the people she loves.  That
makes it hard for me to believe that her anger, her temper, are a
good thing.

Inufan_625:
You want to talk about someone with issues and a chip on their
shoulder take a look at our hero. He could build a house with all the
stone on his shoulder and he has more issues than I can count. This is
a book about teenagers and teenagers have issues, as do adult for that
matter. It is simply that MOST times adults can conceal them better.

There isn't a person alive who has never lashed out and hurt someone
they care for, most especially not a moody fifteen year old someone.
Don't like Ginny if you don't want to, but don't castigate her for
being real to life. OotP Harry also known as capslock Harry was far
more irritating to me than Ginny has ever been even at her most
temperamental.

We have seen all the characters throw hexes and punches, even
Hermione. It is hypocritical to hate one character for doing no less
than all the others have done if you don't begrudge them their actions
as well.

Ceridwen:
Ron, as her brother, will be more critical of her than anyone else.
His underlying concern will also be more personal than another
person's - the WW seems like a conservative society where things like
this is concerned; he is trying to protect her reputation.  True, he
did it poorly.  But, as you imply yourself, siblings have a special
relationship.  They will yell when they really only care.

[snip]
Oh who Bill decides to marry, Ginny has no business butting in.

BAW:
Hold up a moment!  It is OK for a brother to object to whom his sister
dates, but a sister must accept whom a brother hooks up with?  Surely
you can't mean anything so sexist.  But, if not, what DO you mean?

Inufan_625:
I second that BAW. If it isn't Ginny's business who will be taking up
residence as a part of her family then it shouldn't be her brothers'
business who she chooses. The boys are allowed their brotherly
concern. Why can't Ginny be allowed to be concerned that her brother
may end up unhappy in the future if he marries the wrong woman. Also I
don't ever recall her saying anything to Bill's face about his choice,
which means that she hasn't technically butted in at all.

Yb's turn now:
I've noticed a lot of people getting hung up on this - but there is a
difference in the situations. In fact a bit of a handful.
1) Ron is Ginny's older brother. He is expected to look out for her,
most of his family probably expects him to. Fred and George do the
same - I would imagine Percy would if he was nearby.
<snip>
Ginny, on the other hand, is Bill's baby sister - she isn't expected
to 'look after him'.

Inufan_625
Actually I would hope all my children will continue to look after
each other not just the older ones looking after the younger. If my
eldest daughter gets into the car of a stranger should my younger one
look the other way because she is younger or should she speak up and
if necessary run home and tell me?

Ceridwen:
When the sister is fifteen and the youngest, can you doubt that the 
elder sib will yell, scream and holler at her behavior?  And can you
imagine a fifteen year old butting into your presumably adult love 
life?

Inufan_625:
As far as I can tell Ginny never butted into Bill's love life. She
kept her dislike of Fleur behind his back most likely so that she
wouldn't alienate him or look like she was forcing him to choose
between her and his fiancé, just as Molly who is a bit more obvious
seems to be doing.

Ceridwen:
<snip> Younger sib makes a spectacle of herself, elder sib objects 
strenuously at finding younger sib in a clinch in the middle of the 
shortcut to Gryffindor Tower.  Ron handles it differently than the 
twins would have, but I'll bet that if they found him snogging in the 
same circumstances in his fifth year (their seventh), they would have 
crawled all over him like lice on scalp.

Inufan_625:
In a shortcut snogging as opposed to in the middle of the common
room. In a deserted corridor behind a tapestry is hardly what I would
call making a spectacle of herself. I also bet that if the twins had
found little Ronikins snogging a girl in the same place as Ginny that
he would have upped himself a notch on their respect meter. Do you
honestly see the twins as the type to disapprove of their 15-16 year
old brother snogging a girl, with their total disregard for rules???

Ceridwen:
Conversely, we have elder adult sibling who is <snip> around twenty-
five years old, on his own, earning a living, dating the same girl 
for a year (OotP evidence, <snip>), engaged to the girl he's been 
seeing for that year, being criticized by a snot-nosed fifteen year 
old sib who adores him and probably doesn't want him to marry 
*anybody* who will take him away from her, which pretty much means 
anybody at all. <snip>

Gerry:
Canon for that please. What I saw and have already backed up with
canon is a very stuck up, egocentric and vain guest who looks down on
their home and who is going to be family. No wonder Mrs. Weasley,
Ginny and the twins don't like that and it is also clear Ron is still
a bit taken with her. This also obviously is part of why Hermione does
not like her, but it is also for a great part due to Fleur being 'so
full of herself.' Yes, calling her Phlegm is typically teenage
behaviour but it is clear that the reason is the way Fleur is acting,

Inufan_625:
I would also like to add that Ginny didn't seem at all opposed to
Bill marrying Tonks, which kind of negates the whole no one taking
away her brother accusation. Make no mistake it is Fleur's attitude
that draws her ire not the fact that Bill wants to marry her.

Ceridwen:
Adults can do things kids can't.  Adults can sign contracts.  Adults
can be tried on their own merit in a court of law.  Adults must take
responsibility for their actions without having Mummy and Daddy 
charged by implication.  Adults are not kids.  Adults will have the 
benefits as well as the responsibilities of age.  Bill is an adult.  
Bill is engaged.  Bill is his own man and not even subject to his 
parents' will and whim.

Inufan_625:
And adults by their status also tend to make larger and more
detrimental mistakes. Being older does not always mean smarter. Might
I point out that most of the adults in HP have also not been able to
do what a child has done... Face down Voldemort. 
	
Bill does have the right to be with and marry whomever he wants, but
his family also has the right to be concerned about his choice. They
want him to be happy and they did not think Fleur could make him
happy, but I also never saw anyone tell him they didn't like his
fiancé or not to marry her.

Ceridwen:
Ginny is still a child.  Her parents ultimately have to pick up her
slack.  Her family will be at the least shamed and looked at askance
for her misdeeds.  This is the way of things with children. <snip> 
Elder sibs babysit/child mind younger sibs, elder sibs remind younger
sibs how to act, even if the elder sibs make exceptions for 
themselves unfairly.  Elder sibs are held accountable by parents 
when the elder sib is the only one present while the younger sib is 
making a spectacle of herself/himself.

You can choose to see it as a sexist issue if you like, but you're
purposely missing everything else that goes along with being the
youngest of seven as opposed to the eldest of seven.  And I would 
love to see your reaction to your younger sib trying to dictate your 
adult love life no matter what sex that sib happens to be.

Inufan_625:
Ginny may be young and not of the age of majority but she is not
exactly a child either. All the children in Hp are asked to grow up
far too quickly. They are living amidst a war for their future and the
ultimate hero of that war is deeply ingrained in their hearts. People
are dying all around them. Yes, Ginny has some growing up to do still,
they all do but it is not like she is still in nappies and not
responsible for herself. Yes she still needs some guidance but no one
has to hold her hand. In a little over a year she will be considered a
full adult and her choices are starting to be seen as entirely her own.

Also while older sibs are expected to look out for younger sibs that
doesn't make them accountable for the younger actions. In the end that
falls to the parents. If I leave my four year old and my one year old
out side by the pool and the baby falls in, who is to blame, my child
or me for being an irresponsible parent. Or if one was 10 and the
other 6... Where do we draw the line for responsibility of older sibs???	

I have four younger siblings and I would hope that they would care
enough about me to want to see me happy. If one of them had serious
reservations about a part of my life I would want them to tell me, not
in the way Ginny acted behind Bill's back but in a reasonable way. I
would respect them enough to listen even if I didn't agree and then
try and explain to them my feelings as well. It would be far worse to
let things fester and cause a rift in the family. That would be the
adult way to handle things. I happen to be roughly Bill's age and my
youngest sib is about the twin's ages.