Amortentia and re The morality of love potions/Merope and Tom Sr.

[festuco]

No: HPFGUIDX 152499

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

> Tom knew, or should have known, that he was consenting to all 
> this when he got married, and I see no canon that he was incapable
> of withholding his consent or that he was so overcome by the potion
> that he didn't know what he was doing.

Gerry
Well, it's quoted time and time again. Dumbledore asks Harry which
ways he sees that could make Tom act like that. He names two: a love
potion or the imperius curse. Dumbledore does not give any other
possibilities but says his guesses are very good. 

Further: when we sees Ron under the influence of a love potion it is
clear that he is completley obsessed.

'Romilda Vane,' said Ron softly, and his whole face seemed to
illuminate as he said it, as though hit by a ray of pure sunlight.
....
'I think...Harry, I think I love her,' said Ron in a strangled voice. 
'OK,' said Harry, walking up to Ron to get  better look at the glazed
eyes and the pallid complexion, 'OK ... say, that again with a
straight face.'
'I love her, repeated Ron breathlessly, 'Have you seen her hair, it's
all black and shiny and silky ... and her eyes?'Her big dark eyes? And
her -'
'This is really funny, and everything,' said Harry impatiently, 'but
joke's over, all right? Drop it'
He turned to leave; he ha dgot two steps towards the door when a
crashing blow hit him on t he right ear. Staggering he looked round.
Ron's fist was drawn right back, his face contorted with rage, he was
about to strike again. 

And all that because Harry made a simple comment. You argued earlier
that Ron only thought he was in love, so Tom could have questioned his
love for Merope. Yet when I read this scene I see a very deep
infatuation which does not leave any room for rational thinking on the
subject. Slughorn may talk about what a love potion does, but what we
see here is the effect of a love potion and this potion is a very
strong drug. If Merope fed Tom something like that, it would indeed be
comparable to the Imperius Curse. I think that is the reason we get
this scene. To get an idea what happened to Tom. 

Tom consented while drugged. Now in a Muggle court of law this would
have been inexplainable. But I bet it would have held with the
Wizengamot. 
'                                                                    
                           
> 
> By the laws and customs of his time, Merope had the right to her
> husband's support if he had the means to do it unless the marriage
> was proved to be invalid. I am not saying she  had *earned* the right. 
> We have rights to all sorts of things we  have done nothing to
deserve.  
> But legally, and, by the morals of her time, morally, she was wronged, 
> IMO. 

Gerry
Only because the laws of her time did not know that what she did to
Tom was possible. If Muggles knew this was possible, the law would
have provided for that and she would have no right to anything at all,
because she got married by committing a crime. 
>
> Pippin:
> According to Slughorn, the potion does not produce feelings of
> love -- it produces feelings of obsession and infatuation. As much
> of the novel turns on the difference between  love and such feelings,
> I think it has to be relevant whether there was any way Tom could 
> have distinguished between love and infatuation before taking such 
> a solemn and in his time nearly irrevocable step as marriage. 

Gerry
Well, what we see from Ron there is not much room for any other
thought. Keeping in mind that DD's guess was right and she did not use
Imperius. 
> 
> Canon suggests that had he been willing to wait, Merope would have 
> tired of his make-believe passion and revealed herself before she 
> became pregnant.

Gerry
Can you quote that? Because I cannot find any canon that suggests
that. It might even have been her pregnancy that made her stop giving
him the potion, believing that now she was having -their- baby he
would never go away. 
> 
> Canon implies the villagers believed Tom's talk of being "hoodwinked" 
> referred to a fake pregnancy, because that was the readiest explanation 
> for his hasty marriage. Dumbledore says that what Tom 
> really meant was that he was enchanted,   but  is it not valid to
> ask whether the enchantment produced the haste as well as the
> desire?

Gerry
Why would that be relevant? He was obsessed, believed she was the love
of his life. Why should he have waited? To me this is a very backhand
way of blaming the victim. He acted in good faith. She knew differently. 
> 

> Pippin:
> Your example illustrates my point very well. If Tom had consented 
> in fear of his life, he would have been entitled to an annulment
> in 1926. But I don't think people would have recognized artificial
> emotional attachment as a problem, because they  didn't see the lack
> of attachment as invalidating the marriage.

Gerry
No, they did not believe magic. 

 He might have done
> better to claim that Merope didn't tell him she was a witch, but it 
> would still be hard, IMO, for him to prove that he wouldn't have 
> married her if he'd known that.

Gerry
Well, as Muggle's don't believe in witches, if he told them she was a
witch they would either have thought he spoke figuratively or that he
was insane. Muggle law is simply not equipped to deal with these
cases. It still is not, because in current times, though a divorce of
course is possible an annulment for these reasons would still be
laughed out of court. And if the wronged muggle would not have made
any legal provisions, he would still loose money, property etc. Just
as a Muggle who killed somebody while under Imperius would go to
prison for a long, long time. 

Gerry