Defense of Snape in POA. Was:Re: Snape, Apologies, and Redemption

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 152607

 
> > 
> > Lanval:
> > Frankly, I think  Lupin's attitude can be interpreted in a 
number 
> > of ways. He clearly does not approve of what's going on, but the 
> > frown might just as well be a kind of "don't-get-me-in-trouble-
> > guys-you-know-as-prefect-I-shouldn't-let-this happen..." 
reaction. 
> > Personally I've never seen this as a sign of deep sympathy for 
> > Snape. Let's remember Snape was spying on Lupin and his friends. 
> > Why would Lupin have any sort of friendly feelings for a boy who 
> > might destroy what little future he had?
> 
> Leslie41:
> 
> It's not so much a matter of Lupin having "friendly" feelings for 
> Snape, as much as him really hating the fact that his friends are 
so 
> malicious.  For example, it's not evident that Lily likes Snape.  
> She tells James "you're as bad as he is."  But she doesn't like 
the 
> fact that James is such a nasty piece of business.  That he picks 
on 
> people just because he can (this is her interpretation, with which 
I 
> agree).  She would defend anyone in that situation.  As Lupin 
would 
> be bothered no matter who was being turned upside down.

You're right, that's entirely possible. As I said, until we get 
Lupin's exact thoughts on the matter, it's all speculation. *I* just 
tend to think that while he knew what his friends were doing was 
very wrong, he would not have felt much for Severus personally -- 
given their history of animosity, which is by now in its fifth year. 

I've seen people actually say that Lupin is the most culpable of the 
four here, precisely because he realizes it's wrong and he ought to 
speak up, both from his obligation as prefect, and from a moral 
standpoint. I'm not sure what to argue against that, though I don't 
fully agree -- yet there's a certain truth to it, and an 
inconvenient one at that. Perhaps because I'm rather a Lupin-like 
person, and I might not have spoken up either. Which is why I admire 
Lily very much in this scene.



> Leslie41:
> Well, okay.  But we don't know exactly what he did, so it's hard 
> to.  Murder?  Maybe.  But it isn't stated.  Torture?  Ditto.  I'm 
> not trying to defend the fact that Snape was a Death Eater.  I 
just 
> don't know precisely what he did.  We know about many murders 
> committed by Voldemort's followers.  Some of them have have been 
> blatantly described to us.  Voldemort, Bellatrix, Pettigrew, etc.  
> Snape's position as a D.E. is left just a bit vague, I think 
> purposefully.

Lanval:

Well, I have so far not seen a *good* DE. The ones on the tower in 
HBP are not familiar to us, yet they waste no time being very bad. 
The only possibly good, or perhaps *not so bad* DE is Regulus, and 
he's dead for precisely that reason. Snape on the other hand seems 
to have made it pretty far up the ranks, didn't he? I 
can't see him getting to that position by making tea and cookies for 
the gang after a little torture gig.

But again, I agree it's speculation until we know. As are a lot of 
things. I merely thought that if you were going to speculate about 
Black's hateful treatment of students other than Snape (for which 
there is no evidence at all -- playing pranks on people can't really 
be compared with the much more malicious way he treats Snape), and 
allow that to enter into the discussion, then Snape's DE days are 
fair game as well.


 

> Leslie41:
> I'm not saying we should disregard it at all, but that wasn't the 
> way the discussion was heading.  I am a person who thinks that 
Snape 
> is Dumbledore's man.  Snape was in the Death Eaters, did damage 
> therein (some of it made plain to us, some not, etc.), but 
according 
> to Dumbledore repented of his former actions, and has repeatedly 
> risked his life and sacrificed much for the side of good, 
including 
> saving Harry's life.  The problem as I see it with Sirius Black is 
> that he never repented of his actions, and stubbornly maintained 
> that Snape 'deserved' what Sirius doled out.      

Lanval:
He said that once, right? To me that sounded more like Sirius 
opening his big mouth and being stubborn and too childish to admit 
that he'd done wrong. I very much doubt he REALLY, truly wishes for 
Snape to have died. After all, that would have meant, at best, 
expulsion for Lupin, if not imprisonment or execution. And at 
another point he does agree that they were *berks*, right? Wish I 
had the books at hand...



 
>  
> > Lanval:
> > 
> > Sirius Black is not guilty of attempted murder. He's guilty of 
> > telling a nosy kid, who had a mind to get four other boys 
> > expelled, the way into a secret passage. It was Snape's own 
> > decision to enter.
> 
> Leslie41:
> I predict many detectives and lawsuits in your future.

Lanval:

Huh??

  
> > What business did Snape have spying on Lupin, when he knew that 
> > Dumbledore must have sanctioned whatever went on? 
> 
> Leslie41:
> None.  Doesn't mean you want to go and deliberately get the guy 
> killed.  As for the spying part, well Harry Potter himself bears a 
> striking resemblence to Snape regarding his investigation into 
areas 
> that bear Dumbledore's sanction.


Lanval:
Harry's breaking of the rules does not excuse Snape. But if we're 
going to bring Harry into it... I would argue that Harry must break 
a lot of rules for the simple reason of keeping the plot 
interesting. But can you point out an occasion of Harry spying on 
anyone for purely malicious reasons, as Snape did with the 
Marauders? I can't recall one right now, though I may be wrong. 




> Leslie41:
> Oh, I don't think Snape is innocent by any means.  And I don't 
think 
> Black is evil.  I *like* Sirius Black.  As I said in a previous 
> post, I tend to give all the characters a good deal of slack. My 
> point is that people seem very willing to indict Snape for his 
> behaviors (or even *invent* nasty things he's done), when other 
> characters do things that are just as, or far more blameworthy.  
But 
> (IMHO) because those other characters are charismatic, or 
handsome, 
> or well-liked, they don't seem to have to bear the responsibility 
or 
> the blame for their actions the way Snape does.  They're given 
> a "pass".  Not fair.  Just not fair.  

Lanval:

That's funny -- because Snape seems to me, in online fandom at 
least, the absolute King of Excused, Defended, and Unfairly Praised 
characters. Sirius on the other hand appears to be catching huge 
amounts of flak, mostly from Snape fans. As for handsome or 
charismatic characters getting a pass: if that were true for me, 
then I would be bending over backwards to defend Tom Riddle as well. 
Not going to happen.

I feel for teenage Snape. The Pensieve scene is very, very ugly. I 
just happened to listen to it on tape the other day, and was struck 
again by how nasty it was, somehow hearing it struck me as worse as 
when I first read it. But I refuse to condemn James, or Sirius, on 
this one twenty minute account.

My heart bleeds for Snape the child (if his childhood was indeed as 
miserable as JKR seems to suggest). But nor more than for little 
Neville, Harry, or, yes, Sirius, who probably had a rough time 
as well.
> 



>big snip of a well reasoned argument<


> But yet, in all that, everyone still seems to think Snape behaved 
> terribly, that he "didn't listen to the evidence".  It wasn't his 
> job to listen to the evidence, first of all.  And the trial had 
> already taken place.  Sirius Black was a condemned murderer.  It 
was 
> Snape's job to capture him. ("How I hoped I would be the one to 
> *catch* you") he says.  Second of all, when the evidence for 
Black's 
> innocence is revealed, Snape doesn't hear it because he's 
> unconscious.  So what, pray tell, did he do that was so wrong?  

Lanval:

Only this: if Harry, a thirteen year old child, can muster enough 
control over his emotions to allow the man he believes responsible 
for his parents' death to speak, and tell his side of the story, 
then so can Snape. But no, it was revenge and Order of Merlin all 
the way. 

And to correct one thing: Sirius was never a *convicted murderer*. 
That would have required a trial. 

 
> 
> 
> Leslie41:
> 
> At this point, Dumbledore never even attempts to tell Snape that 
> Black is innocent.  What Dumbledore, in fact, tells Harry and 
> Hermione is that "there is not a shred of proof to support Black's 
> story," admitting as well that "the word of two thirteen-year-old 
> wizards will not convince anybody". No one, NO ONE is going to be 
> inclined to believe Harry and Hermione.  At this point, why should 
> Snape?
> 

Lanval:

Because it's Albus Dumbledore who speaks for Sirius. Snape of all 
people ought to know about second chances.

Again -- DDM!Snape should have full trust in Dumbledore's decisions. 
At the very least he should have kept his mouth shut, given Sirius 
the benefit of the doubt, and later demanded an explanation.



> Much later, in OotP, Snape has obviously been briefed on Black's 
> innocence and accepts it, even to the point of shaking hands with 
> him. 
> 

Lanval:

Yes, no doubt feeling deepest remorse that he ever wanted Sirius to 
be Kissed. *evil grin*  Pure speculation on my part, of course.