When did DD become headmaster? (Was: Pince/Filch)

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 152687

 
> Carol responds:
> I think we can determine the approximate date that Dumbledore became
> headmaster based on two things: Lupin's enrollment in Hogwarts as a
> first year, which would be in 1971 if I remember correctly, and
> (possibly) McGonagall's tenure as Transfiguration teacher, which 
would
> have begun when DD stopped teaching Transfiguration to become
> headmaster. That would be "thirty years ago this December" as of 
OoP,
> or December 1965 (which suggests a sudden replacement, as if someone
> had just died). But we also need to consider the dates for the
> Weasleys if Apollyon Pringle predates DD's tenure as headmaster.

Potioncat:

I'm working this from memory, so I expect others will fine tune these 
years. I know before HBP most of us (and the Lexicon) thought that DD 
became Headmaster shortly before Remus arrived at Hogwarts as a 
student. Lupin does "seem" to imply that. I think it was a mistake on 
our part.

We also have to consider that when Tom Riddle came back to Hogwarts, 
DD was already the Headmaster. It was about 10 years after Riddle had 
applied for DADA with Dippet. I would put that at about 55/56.

Not to argue with your dates, Carol---because I'm worse at this than 
JKR is---but the Lexicon has McGonagall as starting in 1956. Here's 
the link:
 http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/main/timeline_1950-1970.html

So it looks like to me, that Dippet died, DD was promoted to 
Headmaster and McGonagall was hired as Transfigurations and possibly 
also Head of Gryffindor. (I wonder who was Deputy Headmaster--
Slughorn?) Dippet doesn't have to have died at that point. I'm just 
assuming it. I think he follwed Phineas Nigellus, but there isn't 
really canon for it. According to the Black Family Tree, iirc, PN 
dies in the 1920s. That would put PN Black, Dippet and DD as 
contemporaries of a sort. 
> 

Carol:
 The only way I can reconcile those
> apparently conflicting indicators of the Weasleys' age is to assume
> that Hagrid didn't become gamekeeper until after Dumbledore became
> headmaster. 

Potioncat:
I don't see that Hagrid's being an assistant or apprentice to Ogg 
would be a problem. I think Hagrid says firmly that he stayed at 
Hogwarts after he was expelled. Although Harry is friends with 
Hagrid, it's not too likely that Molly or Arthur would have been 
friends with the gamekeeper. They may have known of Hagrid but had no 
reason to mention him. Also, they weren't in the original Order, and 
would not have developed a friendship with him after Hogwarts.

Carol:
 We know that DD was there to admit
> eleven-year-old Remus Lupin in that year. Did Ogg and Pringle
> conveniently retire (or die) that same year? Did Dumbledore ease 
them
> out and substitute protected people of his own choice, the half-
giant
> Hagrid and the Squib Filch, at the same time outlawing the old
> punishments (including whipping, manacles, and possibly
> Transfiguration)?

Potioncat:
In one of the memories, we hear Slughorn say that DD is adamant that 
Horcruxes not be taught. (I think it was horcruxes and not just Dark 
arts) At that time, DD would have been, at most, the Deputy 
Headmaster. So he had some influence at that point. At the same time, 
he wasn't able to prevent Hagrid's expulsion.

I think we can assume that Dippet allowed the severe punishments.
These punishments may have been considered very acceptable by the WW 
at large. We can decide or guess that JKR messed up her timeline with 
Filch; or we can decide that Filch worked for Pringle for a while. 
It's possilbe he never administered any of the punishments, but would 
have liked to, and is disappointed that he doesn't have the authority.

Interestingly, when he did have the authority, he wasn't able to be 
decisive and do it. So he may be like a lot of on-lookers who 
sometimes say, "If that were my child, I would..." (Particulary on-
lookers who haven't had children yet.)

> Carol:
> I absolutely agree that it was Dumbledore who abolished the old
> punishments (and IMO started using Hogwarts as a refuge for people 
he
> was trying to protect at about the same time). But when did that
> happen, why protect Filch, and how did Filch gain his familiarity 
with
> the "old ways" as practiced by Apollyon Pringle?

Potioncat:
As much as I'd like to think DD abolished the punishments on the 
first day of his new position, he might not have. While he can be 
very firm in what he tolerates, he can tolerate quite a bit. 
cough*Snape*cough. I mean...cough*ProfessorSnape*cough. And if the WW 
in general accepted those forms of discipline, he may have moved a 
bit slower. Keep in mind that Molly once hit a twin with her broom, 
and she makes the comments about the marks Arthur still has in a 
matter of fact manner. It's not like she's horrified by it.

Look what Umbrage got away with, just because Harry upheld the 
schoolboy code and kept quiet.

So I think---to get to the point--that it was 55 or 56 that DD became 
Headmaster. It seems that he was either Deputy or a very strong 
presence during Dippet's term.

I'd love to know who his first Deputy was and whether McGonagall was 
immediately made HoH. I assume she was. Perhaps it wouldn't work that 
way in RL, but I suspect it did in this case.