CHAPDISC: HBP16, A Very Frosty Christmas

[Megan]

No: HPFGUIDX 152688


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
<mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com> , "cubfanbudwoman"
<susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:


> QUESTIONS
> 1. Why the heck does Harry never look anything up? Clearly, he's
> curious about the Unbreakable Vow. Why not grab a book? Why not
ask
> the librarian?



Well, Harry does consult books.... Hermione! (ha!) Harry is a 15
year old boy/young man and most 15 year olds want to do the least
bit of work to find out the answer to a question. When in the past
has Harry (or Ron even) consulted a book on their own, even after
Hermione's  insistance and urdging.


>
> 2. So what's your best guess of what the twins' attempted
> Unbreakable Vow was all about? What do you think they tried to get
> Ron to do? Do you think they understood exactly what they were
> doing? How do you image these youngsters (they'd have been about
7)
> would've learned about UVs?



They might have picked up on it through converstations of their
parent/other adults. Young kids might "know" about things but not
know the specifics of them.  The Twins might not have known what
the  consequences of the Vow was or understood them.  Youngsters
don't have a complete understanding of things at times, especially
dealing with such mature things. I doubt they had any understanding
of what they were doing but thohgt, hey, lets try it!




>
> 3. Is it significant that Ginny has told Fred & George about Ron &
> Lav-Lav, given the "encounter" with Ron when he happened upon her
&
> Dean snogging? Do you think she's always talked about Ron to F&G?
Do
> you think she was hoping they'd transfer their "nosing in" to
Ron's
> love life from hers?


Thats a good idea. What better way to get her brothers off her back
than to bring their attention to their brother and his evolving love
life.  Ginny seems to have always had a good relationship with her
brothers, sharing similar personalities and humor.

>
> 4. Fred waits to call Percy a prat until after Molly has left the
> kitchen. Does this show there is a side to him which cares about
> others' feelings? Or does he simply fear the Wrath of Molly?
>

I think they wanted to spare Molly's feelings. They love their
Mother a lot and have seen first hand what Percy has done to her.
They know Molly would be upset upon hearing them call Percy that and
know Molly would yell at them, regardless of how deserved the name
calling might be. The relationship between Percy and his family is
(if not getting better) at least on speaking terms. They would not
want to do anything to jeopardize this fragile relationship.


> 5. What do you think of Harry's pronouncement that he's going to
> tell DD and anyone who can help about Snape's offer to help Draco?
> Does this signal a change in Harry re: turning to others, relying
> upon others more?
>

Harry is growing up and might be finally learning that if he would
have just ASKED questions/told things to people in the past, things
might have been better in some circumstances. He still has not
learned to value the opinions of his peers/adults. Harry seems to
have a "one-track" mind in regards to Snape/Draco and no matter how
deserved or undeserved his opinions are, he never wants to take into
account that he might be wrong about people.  I think it is
interesting that he almost pities Draco at one point in HPB,
noticing that Draco had become pale and had circles under his eyes.
Is Harry finally realizing the mask people wear to protect
themselves/hid the truth from people? Harry takes everything it
seems at face value and doesn't want to trust people who "seem" to
be against him or DD or good. Think back to PoA and how he assumed
(though he was right to) that Sirius was out to murder him and never
thought that there was more to the story than what meets the eye. I
would think Harry might begin to understand that things may not be
what they seem.


> 6. When Ron says that DD & his dad are likely to protest that
Snape
> is not really intending to help Draco but is only trying to get
> information from him, Harry says, "They didn't hear him. No one's
> that good an actor, not even Snape." Contrast this with Snape's
> statement to Draco: "Where do you think I would have been all
these
> years, if I had not known how to act?" It seems to me that this is
> the crux of the Harry-Snape "problem" and the "problem" for the
> fandom in trying to figure out Severus Snape. *Is* he acting? When
> is he acting and when is he not? How good an actor is he? Is Harry
> correct that "even Snape" is not that good an actor?
>

I would say that yes, Snape is a horrible GOOD actor, yet sometimes
he lets the truth "slip". Minor hesitations in speech (OoP), Shaking
of the hands (HBP). Snape has also learned how to behave during
his "off-time" from being a Death Eater. He was surrounded by good
wizards and knew what was expected of someone. Many people in
everyday society know how to act in public and play the face game in
order to hide their true feelings. We won't know until the end of
book 7 if Snape is a good actor or not. He has to be good IMO or he
would not have survived so long. Snape has either decieved VM/DEs or
DD/OP or both. I cannot help but still believe that Snape is a good
guy deep down (and yes, he is sexy in a uber-intellegent but cannot
handle contact with the unintellegent masses and am scarred for life-
  kind of way:-*). If he never did turn good initially and was a
double/triple agent for old Voldy, then whats to say the years of
being a good guy never got to him? If he IS a bad guy, I think some
ounce of good might have seeped into his sallow skin and soul.




> 7. Who do you think, in the past, has issued invitations to
Hermione
> for Christmas at the Burrow? Do you imagine Hermione invited
> herself? Ron invited her? Mrs. Weasley? Ginny? Or that it was
simply
> assumed she'd go? What do you think happened this year? Was an
> invitation given and declined? Was it all so awkward between Ron &
> Hermione that she was not invited at all?
>

I don't think Mrs Weasly would have invited her and I cannot
remember if she was invited. I assume (and always have) that she
revieved an invitation (with Molly's Ok) to visit. Since I am at
work and have no Canon with me, I cannot remember when the first
time she visited was. Whenever she is there, she is always with
Ron/Harry. Nothing is ever mentoned that she was invited my Ginny.


> 8. Comments on the "gnome angel"? Yet another hilarious stunt by
> the twins, or yet another sign that the twins lack a conscience
> and/or are cruel?


I DIED laughing when reading it. In a way it is cruel (and good ting
Hermione was not there to see it or we'd have her after gnome rights
too -if anyone can come up with a cute saying for the gnomes, please
go for it- my brain is not working ATM).



The gnome started it is my answer. It bit a twin and had to pay. Is
it cruel....... yes but is it funny! How less cruel is it than when
in COS (I think) Ron and Harry threw the gnomes out of their holes?
How less cruel is being thrown through the air?

>
> 9. Many people fault Molly (or Molly & Ginny) for not being warm
and
> welcoming with Fleur. Is there anyone who, to the contrary, finds
> Fleur's behavior in the Christmas Eve scene to be rude ["Eez eet
> over? Thank goodness, what an `orrible--"]? Or should Molly not
> have subjected everyone to Celestina Warbeck in the first place?
>

We only see the situation through Harry-Vision. Fleur has been at
the Weasley's for a bit before Harry gets there and he is a first-
hand witness to her attitude of "betterness" when she brings him
breakfast. She comments on the lack of things to do (I think) except
cooking and cleaning. To Molly, those are important things to do. I
assume Fleur has never had to do these things and she takes for
granted that some people enjoy and are happy with "the simple life".
I assume the Celestina Warbeck evening is a yearly tradition (or
almost). It is MOLLY'S house, not Fleur and it was rude of her to
keep taking and making fun of HER HOSTS entertainment schedule.
Molly, by turning up the wireless, was hinting to Fleur to SHUT UP!
Fleur is just unconcious that her attitude might offend some people.
She is out of her element and is dealing with it the only way she
knows how.




> 10. The scene with Harry, Arthur & Lupin is one which, when we
look
> back upon it, is clearly setting us up for the tower scene. It is
> filled with the kinds of remarks and statements which feel
> like "great pronouncements" or "truths" or "key insights," such
> as "It comes down to whether you trust DD's judgment" and "But
> Dumbledore can make mistakes" and "You are determined to hate him,
> Harry" and "Has it occurred to you, Harry, that Snape was simply
> pretending—?" Play those lines off one another, and you pretty
much
> have the DDM!Snape and ESE!Snape camps after the tower scene, no?
> (As well as the "DD could NEVER have been that wrong about Snape"
> vs. "DD can make BIG mistakes" camps.) Comments? Additionally,
> Lupin makes some remarks here about Snape which surprised some
fans.
> Was he speaking what he truly believed? Did you believe him?
>


There are people I have or had in my life that I too neither hate
nor like. It is after having a rocky and sometimes hateful past with
that person and me personally coming to deal with the events
surrounding my relationship (or lack thereof) with that person.
Lupin is the same way. He has grown up and though he knows he and
Snape will never be friends, they are no longer enemies. After a
while, the feelings of dislike soften but the memories are still
there and affection (of semi-like) will never be there. Like I said
above, we won't know until the end og book 7 if Snape is truely a
murderer or a fake murderer. DD can make mistakes. I think he
admitted it at the end of OotP that he overlooked the extreme
dislike between Sirius and Snape. He made a Old-Man's folly then and
maybe he did in believing in Snape. Rowling has often gave us clues
that we think mean one thing but is something completely different.
DO I believe Snape is the Big Bad Murder from on top of the Tower? I
have mixed feelings but I cannot (or dont want to) believe that DD
would be so decieved by a person.



> 11. It is clear, to Lupin anyway, that Harry is *hoping* that the
> HBP is his father. This is reinforced by the fact that Harry is
> disappointed when he checks the book's date and sees it's too old
to
> have been his dad's era. Harry has also previously stated that the
> HBP is a better potions teacher than Snape. Why does Harry like
the
> HBP so much, and why does he *want* him to be his father? And what
> does all this say about Harry and Snape? Has something changed in
> Snape, to have made him truly a lesser teacher now than then? Or
is
> it simply the removal, for Harry, of Snape the person and their
> unpleasant history from the mix, so that he's seeing "pure
teaching"
> in the book and not the personality of the teacher?


Harry want some sort of connection between him and his father other
than the cloak. He hears all the time about the similarities between
his and his mother Lily's eyes and rarely anything about James. It
is every child's wish to have their parents teach them (whether it
is a sport or a craft or even help with homwork) and Harry has never
had this. Harry has never given Snape a chance to teach him or even
realize what Snape has taught him. There are teachers in my past I
hated at the time and did not believe I could ever learn anything
from them. It is not until I have grown up and re-evaluated the
situation and actually thought about it that I learned I DID
learning something, things I have not forgotten until this day. I
don't think Harry will realize until he is older what Snape did
teach him. Sometimes we are taught in such unseen ways by people
that we never truely realize them. Until Harry lets go of his Hate
for Snape (which is not likely going to happen if he is DDM :-( )he
will never see how much he has learned.



>
> 12. Why would werewolves have a better life under Voldemort?


VM might give them the "acceptance" that they want and allow them to
Muggle-Hunt freely. Warewolves are looked down upon and rejected and
VM is offering them everything they want- Equality. Would VM
actually do this if he succeded in the war? I have a feeling not.
They are not pure bloods. They are of "mixed" race, something that
is Bad in VMs eyes. He is most likely pretending to be friends in
order to get what he wants, POWER, then use them as pawns to keep
his power. They are nothing more to him than a TOOL, just like the
Giants.

>
> 13. Are you surprised Molly falls for the story that Percy
couldn't
> stand to not see his family since they were in the neighborhood?
Why
> or why not?
>

She is believing what she wants to believe. She has been hoping that
Percy has not abandoned his family and been as big as a prat that he
has been. She has and is deluding herself to believe that the
Weseleys can be a big happy family again. She has not come to terms
with the fact that he is not like the rest of them. He is like the
cousin who is an accountant. She might have been putting on a face
for him. I can imagine her crying to Arthur that night about what
did we do wrong as parents and asking him if he is ever coming home.
As long as she has hope that he is not as bad or dissapointing as we
thing, there is hope.



>
> 14.  Percy could be so many things.  What do you think?  Is he
good
> but misguided?  Is he ESE?  Is he just a prat?  What explains his
> behavior?  Is he embarrassed? proud? ambitious? hurt?
>

I believe he is a combination of all these things. He is a smart,
intellegent and ambitious young man and wants to show people that he
is not like his family and that he can succede in the Ministry,
something he sees he father as not. He has never truely fit in with
his family and sees the MoM as a psudo-family, one that accepts him
(seemingly) for who he is. IMO, he is only a tool for the MoM. They
are using his thirst for acceptance and thirst to succede. I believe
(and I cannot believe they have not done so yet) that the MoM will
make him a scapegoat for something.


> 15.  In the final scene of the chapter, Harry first senses and
then
> knows that Scrimgeour is after something, and he is determined not
to
> give it to him.  We see a Harry who I would argue is self-
possessed,
> confident, forceful, and quite "adult" in sticking up for what he
> believes is right.  Were you surprised at the growth he displayed,
or
> was this just exactly what you would have expected from him?  What
> did you think of Harry in this scene?
>

Harry has grown up.  After all he has been through and seeing that
the series is drawing to a close, he has to grow up. After all Harry
has been through, I would be dissapointed if he did not feel/say
what he did. I have been waiting for him to accept his lot in life
and come to terms with what life has thrown at him. I have been
waiting for time to do this for a long time now. Now, with no
adule "mentor" to guide him, he would be forced in accepting his lot
anyway. He is almost an adult and it would be expected that he act
the part. Now, if he can truely handle this responsibility and rise
to the occasion is a different question indeed. I believe he may
struggle at first but in the end succede. Acceptance is the first
step. Action comes next.


> 16.  What do you think of Scrimgeour now? Compare him to Fudge, if
> you like.
>
I like the old Fudge, not the Fudge from the end of GOF. I admire
Scrimgeour's need for results but detest his ability to allow
innocent people to suffer in order for him to look good. I wish we
would have seen more of him as head of the Auror Department. In
truth, I don't really like either but who likes politicians? JK!
Both have tier strengths and weaknesses but in truth, neither is
what the WW truely needs. The MoM needs a mix of the two. A man of
feeling and one of action. We do not know much about Scrimgeour's
reign as Minister except that he has allowed innocents to go to jail
and want Harry as a Poster boy. Maybe he will surprise us but I
doubt it. I think eventually his will see his faults. He too, Like
Fudge, is full of.... Fudge and that is their downfall- Hubris-
excessive pride. Hopefully Scrimgeour will come to realize his
faults before it is too late and harry (this time) has to save the
day.

Has anyone looked to see the etemology of Scrimgeour's name?  JW.



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