CHAPDISC: HBP16, A Very Frosty Christmas

Tue May 23 01:56:22 UTC 2006

No: HPFGUIDX 152706

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:
<SNIP of the brilliant summary>
>> QUESTIONS
<SNIP>
> 2.  So what's your best guess of what the twins' attempted 
> Unbreakable Vow was all about?  What do you think they tried to 
get 
> Ron to do?  Do you think they understood exactly what they were 
> doing?  How do you image these youngsters (they'd have been about 
7) 
> would've learned about UVs?

Alla:

Here is what I am doing since I want to answer as many questions of 
yours as possible. Not looking at what others wrote, not looking, 
not looking. :) Crossing my fingers that there will not be too much 
repetition.

So, what did Twins try to make Ron to do? Something funny in a crazy 
way, I don't think it really important, except to let us know what 
UV is AND I also found this episode important because it once again 
showed me that where it matters Arthur absolutely most definitely 
participates in his kids upbringing. I think the fact that this was 
the only time that Ron saw his dad just as angry as his mom usually 
is totally impressed in his memory the seriousness of the moment.

I think here would be a good time second Potioncat's claim that 
Arthur can be realy sexy :) I mean, ideally I would love him to be a 
ten or fifteen years younger, but that will do too.

Have I mentioned that I love Weasleys? So I do. Both men and women. 
Here is hoping that at the end of book 7  the man who has a 
different from Malfoy's idea of what does it mean to be a wizard ( 
Oh, I so hope that this line is not movie contamination - don't have 
CoS at hand to check) and his family instead of "bloodtraitors" 
would get the well deserved name of the "heroes" who played 
important role in the Voldemort's defeat. 

> 
> 3.  Is it significant that Ginny has told Fred & George about Ron 
& 
> Lav-Lav, given the "encounter" with Ron when he happened upon her 
& 
> Dean snogging?  Do you think she's always talked about Ron to F&G? 
Do 
> you think she was hoping they'd transfer their "nosing in" to 
Ron's 
> love life from hers?

Alla:

You know that I love Ginny and I am sure that her big brothers were 
nosing in her love life plenty of times and she would wish that both 
Twins and Ron would just back off :), but I wish she would not :)

I think Ron deserved a bit of Lav-Lav in his life, without anybody 
getting to him , including Ginny and Twins.

> 5.  What do you think of Harry's pronouncement that he's going to 
> tell DD and anyone who can help about Snape's offer to help 
Draco?  
> Does this signal a change in Harry re: turning to others, relying 
> upon others more?

Alla:

But OF COURSE. Look how he talks about Draco to pretty much 
everybody including both adults and his peers. And everybody pretty 
much blowns him off. Yea, that is a good way to make Harry trust 
adults even more :) Okay, Arthur checked, but clearly not enough, if 
Harry turned out to be completely and totally right. And do not get 
me started on Dumbledore letting a juvenile assasin run amok the 
school AFTER Katie Bell  and Ron almost died. Grrrr. I do wonder if 
Albus indeed knew everything about Draco's actions, how many almost 
hits he would have allowed little prat to make before he would 
finally arrested him. Safety of the OTHER students, Headmaster, not 
just trying to save the murderer in making?

I mean, I am pretty sure that this sets up a stage for Harry and his 
friends playing  in the field almost with no adult presence in book 
7, but I still wanted to smack them a bit.

You know what is funny? We talked plenty on the list in the past 
that Harry needs to mature and trust adults, etc, etc. I have a 
friend who is also a fan of the books. I mean, she is not quite as 
obsessive as I am, but she loves  the books, rereads them,etc. So, 
she HATED that Harry went to adults  for help with Draco instead of 
relying only upon his friends. She was saying that  in OOP Harry was 
a very realistic teenager, who was self-reliant and understandably 
so, but she thought that in HBP Harry digressed to the child, who 
runs to the adults as soon as the problems came in.

I mean eventually she changed her mind a bit that Harry was so 
burned by the death of Sirius that he started to doubt his judgment.

To each their own, I pointed to her that Harry did NOT abandon 
relying upon himself and his friends especially in Draco's 
investigation and extra help never hurts.

Of course not that anybody helped him much. :)

> 6.  When Ron says that DD & his dad are likely to protest that 
Snape 
> is not really intending to help Draco but is only trying to get 
> information from him, Harry says, "They didn't hear him.  No one's 
> that good an actor, not even Snape."  Contrast this with Snape's 
> statement to Draco:  "Where do you think I would have been all 
these 
> years, if I had not known how to act?"  It seems to me that this 
is 
> the crux of the Harry-Snape "problem" and the "problem" for the 
> fandom in trying to figure out Severus Snape.  *Is* he acting?  
When 
> is he acting and when is he not?  How good an actor is he?  Is 
Harry 
> correct that "even Snape" is not that good an actor?

Alla:

Well, yes, sure, I partially agree with you. It is a BIG question 
whether Snape acts or not, but IMO  it matters less and less, 
because with every book we learn more and more Snape's horrible 
acts, which cannot be just shrugged off as acting.

I mean, surely he was not acting when he told Prophecy to Voldemort, 
it is highly unlikely than when he screams "you and your filfy 
father", he acts either, don't you think? You know despite the drama 
of the Tower scene, I was SO very happy when I read this line from 
Snape , because that SEALED for me that James is always on Snape's 
mind and that Snape is having very very hard time distinguishing 
between father and son.

So, to get back to your question. I have NO idea whether Snape was 
acting in that scene or not. I think  it is possible that he was 
acting, but I don't think that in the book 7 the key to Snape's 
character would depend upon resolving the question of whether he is 
a good actor.

> 9.  Many people fault Molly (or Molly & Ginny) for not being warm 
and 
> welcoming with Fleur.  Is there anyone who, to the contrary, finds 
> Fleur's behavior in the Christmas Eve scene to be rude ["Eez eet 
> over?  Thank goodness, what an `orrible--"]?  Or should Molly not 
> have subjected everyone to Celestina Warbeck in the first place?

Alla:

I am the one who thinks that neither Weasleys nor Fleur were on 
their  best behaviour in their interactions through the book. In 
this scene I find Fleur to be SO very rude. I mean, really, you are 
Bill's fiance, but you also a guest in his house. You just don't 
call the song which your future mother in law obviuously loves so 
much horrible, you just don't IMO.

I mean, Fleur is not stupid, she is very smart, so I was very 
annoyed with her in that scene.

> 10.  The scene with Harry, Arthur & Lupin is one which, when we 
look 
> back upon it, is clearly setting us up for the tower scene.  It is 
> filled with the kinds of remarks and statements which feel 
> like "great pronouncements" or "truths" or "key insights,"  such 
> as "It comes down to whether you trust DD's judgment" and "But 
> Dumbledore can make mistakes" and "You are determined to hate him, 
> Harry" and "Has it occurred to you, Harry, that Snape was simply 
> pretending—?"  Play those lines off one another, and you pretty 
much 
> have the DDM!Snape and ESE!Snape camps after the tower scene, no?  
> (As well as the "DD could NEVER have been that wrong about Snape" 
> vs. "DD can make BIG mistakes" camps.)  Comments?  Additionally, 
> Lupin makes some remarks here about Snape which surprised some 
fans. 
> Was he speaking what he truly believed?  Did you believe him?

Alla:

Hehe. Very very true, it does reflect very much what different Snape 
fractions are saying. Point for JKR for setting it so nicely. :)

So, do you REALLY need to hear my comments? LOL. Okay, I hope that 
members of the Order will learn the hard way that DD DOES make 
mistakes, if apparently they have not learned it so far.

As to whether I believe Lupin, well NO not at all. I was like , how 
about your honest opinion, eh?

> 13.  Are you surprised Molly falls for the story that Percy 
couldn't 
> stand to not see his family since they were in the neighborhood?  
Why 
> or why not?

Alla:

Poor Molly. No, I was not surprised at all, I think Molly would 
believe anything which supports in her hope that Percy is not such a 
prat as he really is IMO.

> 14.  Percy could be so many things.  What do you think?  Is he 
good 
> but misguided?  Is he ESE?  Is he just a prat?  What explains his 
> behavior?  Is he embarrassed? proud? ambitious? hurt?

Alla:

That is another underdeveloped character, which could be so 
interesting. I think he is a prat, but very BIG one.

> 15.  In the final scene of the chapter, Harry first senses and 
then 
> knows that Scrimgeour is after something, and he is determined not 
to 
> give it to him.  We see a Harry who I would argue is self-
possessed, 
> confident, forceful, and quite "adult" in sticking up for what he 
> believes is right.  Were you surprised at the growth he displayed, 
or 
> was this just exactly what you would have expected from him?  What 
> did you think of Harry in this scene?

Alla:

I said earlier that I really don't think that Harry will do any 
super maturing in book 7, I think the only additional step would be 
forgiving Snape, I think THIS is Harry we will see in book 7. As you 
said, confident, forceful adult, who I hope would live to see the 
better "life" after Voldemort.

> 16.  What do you think of Scrimgeour now? Compare him to Fudge, if 
> you like.

Alla:

Eh, I don't think he would be very relevant to Harry's quest based 
on their conversation at the end.

Bravo, dear! Thank you so much.