[HPforGrownups] Who's to blame? (was Scary Teachers - Good Teachers

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 152915

On 26 May 2006 at 0:36, lupinlore wrote:

> It would seem that we (most of us engaged in this particular subthread) 
> are groping toward a surprising amount of consensus, considering that 
> we are coming from very different directions.  That is Hogwarts seems 
> to be an astonishingly badly organized and poorly run school.

Shaun:
I'm not sure I agree with that. The school certainly seems to have some problems, but I think 
it's hard to say precisely how bad things are. We only get a fairly narrow view of what the 
school is like. In my view, it could have very serious problems. Or they could be quite minor - 
I just can't tell.

But we also need to remember that the way we judge a school depends on lot on where we 
are coming from. As I've made clear in the past, I think Hogwarts is very heavily based on the 
traditional British Public School model - http://home.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/HSWW.html

Now, I happen to think that is a very good model for a school in its essence (there can 
certainly be problems in individual cases, and there are historical aspects that needed to be 
changed - but overall I do think it's a good model). But there's plenty of people out there with 
differing opinions. What makes a school a good school or a bad school, or a type of school a 
good type or a bad type is a very contentious issue.

In fairness, in my view, Hogwarts should be judged in comparison to the type of school it is 
modelled on. Attempting to judge it in comparison to, say, an American High School, or a 
British Comprehensive, or an Australian Secondary College just doesn't produce a fair 
judgement of Hogwarts as a school in my view.

And when you compare Hogwarts to the schools I believe it is modelled on, it's not that 
unusual. I don't think it's unusually bad. Or unusually good. From the limited information we 
have I think it's old fashioned (even for such schools - it seems to have a late Victorian/ 
Edwardian feel in my view as opposed to more modern developments) good in some 
aspects, bad in some aspects.

It has some problems - but I'm not sure I could agree it is badly organised or badly run. It 
might be. I'd need to see why others think it is to see if I agreed.
 
lupinlore:
> Who's to blame for that?  I suppose you could say wizarding society as 
> a whole.  Wizards do seem to be an incredibly stupid lot.  But then we 
> have an "epitome of goodness" as a headmaster.  Not an unproblematic 
> situation.  There's also the problem that so many of the students are 
> muggleborns and half-bloods, and logically they (and especially their 
> parents) should be screaming bloody murder.

Shaun:
I don't follow your last point - could you enlarge on it perhaps?

I also don't think wizards are stupid. The fact that they may have a different society than us 
doesn't make them stupid. Cultural imperialism may be attractive to some people, but 
imposing our view of society on another culture is already problematic.

I do agree that if Hogwarts has serious problems, part of those problems may come from the 
reverance in which Dumbledore is held. It's much harder to advocate change in a school 
where the Headmaster is a very revered figure - I know of some historical examples of 
exactly that happening.

But the issue I don't understand is why you think muggleborns and half-blood parents should 
be screaming 'bloody murder.' There's plenty of muggles around - including quite a number 
on this list - who may not see anything inherently wrong with Hogwarts, whether it is wrong or 
right. Some parents pay an absolute fortune to send their children to schools that, in my view, 
are very bad schools. But that's what they want for their kids. My parents paid a fortune to 
send me to a school I loved - but many people would have hated. It's an individual choice. 
There's no 'muggle view' that's universal.

Maybe there are some muggles or half-bloods who have refused to let their children go to 
Hogwarts because they dislike the idea of the place so much. If so, we wouldn't see those 
kids in the school.

Also, muggle parents may have absolutely no idea of what the school is actually like.

In my view, the average Muggle parent who is sending their child to Hogwarts, probably 
envisages it very much as being a British Public School. And those schools are *overall* by 
*most people* are seen as being very good schools (whether they deserve that reputation or 
not). Especially, if as many people believe, Hogwarts is free for its students to attend, there 
might be a lot of muggle parents out there who are delighted that their child has a free place 
at such a school.

And that's before you consider the fact that muggle parents are having to deal with children 
who have powers and abilities they can't even begin to understand. Discovering there's a 
school - one school - which will help your child deal with issues you can't grasp - that's a 
pretty powerful incentive to both send your child there, and not to rock the boat. I see that 
with some parents of some very gifted children I know. And my own parents wound up 
choosing an education for me that was totally different to anything they had planned for or 
anticipated because experts told them that was where I needed to be. And they weren't 
always delighted with things they knew were happening there - but it was hard to find any 
other choice.

lupinlore: 
> Given that, wizards may simply not be able to afford anything better.  
> Hogwarts teachers are pretty p**s poor at their jobs because the 
> wizards don't have the money or other resources to train them properly, 
> and they don't have the population density necessary to insure a supply 
> of even barely talented educators.  The recurrent problems filling the 
> DADA job may have to do with the jinx rumor, but it probably also has 
> to do with the fact that their just isn't a supply of even barely 
> adequate candidates.

Shaun:
Historically teachers at schools like Hogwarts weren't actually trained as teachers. It wasn't 
considered necessary. And many of these people were excellent teachers despite that fact. 
Teacher training (and I've spent the last three and a half years going through it) really doesn't 
teach you all that much in my experience. I've learned a lot of political theory, but very little 
practical skills - those have been developed by learning on the job during my teaching 
practice. And what little I have learned in my classes at Uni, has mostly come only in the last 
twelve weeks - when I'm already considered to be a very competent teacher.

A lot depends on what you are looking for in your teachers. If you want teachers who 
embrace certain theories (often politically correct theories) on education, teacher training is 
great. If you want teachers who can just impart knowledge and skills to the students, it may 
not be necessary. I think formal teacher training can be valuable in turning a mediocre 
teacher into a competent one, personally. But I don't think it does that much for those who 
are already competent to begin with.

And I think the teachers at Hogwarts vary widely in their abilities. Some are good teachers (in 
my view). Some are bad (in my view). Most seem at least competent.

I do think you are on to something when you talk about the population issue, and I do think 
it's a facotr. When there's only one school with (normally) only one teacher in each subject, 
so the only way you are going to get a job is if you happen to be lucky enough to apply at the 
right time - not many people are going to consider teaching as a career.

Especially not when - as Professor Dippet shows in his interview with Tom Riddle - that this is 
not a job you can get straight out of school. So you really have to plan for another career and 
people just fall into teaching at some point.

There's also the factor to consider though that in the years after a war, even in our society, 
schools have often found it very hard to find teachers. Much harder than normal. You lose 
people in a war, and people need to replace them. Unfortunately teaching is one of the areas 
that often finds itself unable to find the people it needs.

And when it comes to a subject like DADA - well, it seems to me that experts on defending 
against the Dark Arts are a group you would have expected to have been heavily involved in 
a war, and to have therefore suffered high casualties and therefore to be in greater demand 
than ever in the years after that war.

lupinlore:
> It is interesting that the history position is filled by a ghost -- 
> i.e. somebody who doesn't need the money.  If there were a supply of 
> adequate candidates for that job one would suspect having a ghost 
> taking up the slot would be rather controversial.  There didn't seem to 
> be any belief that there would be many candidates for the divination 
> job, either.  Nor did anyone raise an eyebrow that Dumbledore had 
> to "beg and wheedle" a retired potions professor to come back to work.  
> It really seems like the WW has to strain its muscles to fill jobs that 
> any mediocre muggle school can fill as a matter of course, even in an 
> age when the vast majority of the population wouldn't even consider a 
> teaching career.  All in all it bespeaks a very poor society with 
> extremely limited resources that lives in a perpetual state of fear and 
> denial.  Dumbledore said that the fountain the ministry was a lie.  It 
> may well be that most of what wizards tell themselves about their 
> world, and the world in general, and the reasons that they hide, and 
> the true extent of their power and resources, is a lie as well.

Shaun:
A poor society - yes, but not necessarily one that is poor in money and resources. It may be a 
society that is poor in *people*. It has less *people* than it should. Given it's recent history, 
that would be my first impression as to the most likely shortage in the Wizarding World.

As for Divination - it seems that it's not a job that just anyone can do. Seers are rare. And 
because of their rarity probably have better jobs available to them than teaching. Hogwarts 
has a Divination teacher who is a Seer - but not a very good one. That may be the only type 
of seer that goes around seeking a teaching job.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia