Did Dumbly Deserve what he got?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 152962

> Alla:
> > Oh, and while I think that Snape killed DD because he was saving 
> > himself, NOT because DD ordered him to do so, I unfortunately 
don't 
> > think that Snape planned it all along.
> 
> Carol:
<SNIP>
> I do absolutely agree that Snape could not have planned to kill DD 
all
> along, given that he didn't know about Draco's plan for getting the
> DEs into Hogwarts. The only part I disagree with here is the word
> "unfortunately," which I take to mean that you're conceding the 
point
> reluctantly. :-)

Alla:

I snipped major parts of the agreement and disagreement since we had 
this conversation so many times, but I just wanted clarify what I 
meant here.

I totally think that Snape COULD have planned to kill DD all along, 
when I said " unfortunately", it is just my metathinking instinctive 
feeling based on JKR  so refusing to tell about his true loyalties 
that he did not.

I believe that he made an evil choice on the Tower, I believe that 
he MAYBE did this choice for the right reasons as he saw them, but I 
don't necessarily believe that he planned the murder all along.

I mean, I hope that he did, but what I hope for and what I think is 
going to happen are not always the same thing.
 

Carol:
> At any rate, until Book 7 comes out, I think it's a mistake to 
assume
> that Snape is evil. Tragic, yes. A murderer, yes (unfortunately!). 
But
> ESE! or OFH!? The evidence is not all in, and only Dumbledore, erm,
> JKR, knows for certain where Snape's loyalties lie. Until then, 
all we
> can do is examine the canon and see where it leads us, and at this
> point it leads me to conclude that he's DDM.
>

Alla:

Hehe. Assumptions won't hurt ever :), but I do agree completely that 
the evidence is not all in. :)


> Clare:
> I believe you might benefit from re-reading the books.  
Particularly  the 
> overheard conversation between Dumbledore and Snape in which Snape 
was  
> protesting what he was to be made to do.

Alla:

Um, Okay, but you see no matter how many times I reread this 
argument I cannot find there what EXACTLY Snape did not want to do.

Here are some possibilities. Snape did not want to watch over Harry 
anymore. Snape did not want to watch over Draco anymore. Snape did 
not want to spy anymore. Snape did not want to teach DADA anymore. 
ALL of them are fair game and none of mine ( or more precisely none 
of the ones that had been suggested here) proves that Snape is not 
evil.

Clare: 
> JKR has established through example that Snape might be nasty but 
he's not  
> out to harm Harry or anyone else.

Alla:

No, she really did not established that, since there is at least one 
person whom Snape harmed permanently, unless you believe in Alive!DD 
theory.

Clare:
<SNIP>
He stood between his worst childhood nightmare  and the 
> trio to protect them, minutes after one of them had hexed him  
unconscious.

Alla:

I think you might benefit from rereading PoA.

Clare:
 He 
> risked his own safety and freedom to convince the Ministry that  
Voldemort 
> was back.  He risked his position as spy in the Inner Circle by  
not responding 
> to the call when Pettigrew brought LV back to bodily life.   He 
also didn't 
> harm Harry when Harry tried to chase him down with his own  
spells.  If he was 
> truly evil then getting Dumbledore and Potter in one  night, which 
would have 
> been simple at that moment, would have set him up as LVs  
permanent golden 
> balls.
>  
> There is no evidence that Snape is evil and working against the  
Order.  
> There is a lot of evidence that he is a good guy who gets all the  
rubbish jobs.


Alla:

In your opinion there is no evidence of Snape being Evil, in mine - 
there is PLENTY. But of course to be fair - I do think that those 
evidence can go both way, but the interpretation that Snape IS evil 
quite strongly supported by canon, just as there is plenty of 
support for Snape being DD!M. Of course JKR did it on purpose to 
make us talk about it endlessly :), but 
us OFH!Snape or Evil!Snape or LID!Snape or Grey!Snape supporters do 
have plenty of canon on our side, just as DD!M Snape does.

So, to counter all of your examples, I don't have to go that far but 
to Spinner End. Can it be that Snape lies to Bella through his 
teeth? Of course it is possible, but it is just as possible that he 
is telling the truth there and if he DOES tell the truth, it ain't 
pretty, me thinks.

And of course what I just wrote is only my opinion.

Alla