Nice vs. Good, honesty, and Snape: Was Snape, Apologies, and Redemption

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 153021

> >>houyhnhnm:
> > I thought we were arguing over whether it is necessary to be    
> > nice in order to be good, or whether niceness constitutes       
> > goodness in and of itself...
> > <snip>

Betsy Hp:
That was the original premise of this thread, I believe.  I think it 
went basically "Snape isn't nice therefore he cannot be good."  Of 
course, there were the usual definition problems we as a list 
*always* run into <g>, what is "nice", etc.

> >>Lanval:
> Oh no, you misunderstood me then. My argument was that 
> niceness/kindness cannot simply be ignored, or looked at with 
> contempt, when judging a characters 'goodness'.

Betsy Hp:
I do think niceness/kindness *can* be a factor in deciding whether 
or not a character is good.  But it is an inherently flawed gage 
because it's very easy to fake.  As demonstrated by Fake!Moody.  
Also, within this series the "good characters" often behave in a 
manner that is impossible to describe as nice.  And not always for 
principled reasons.  

Actually, some of the "good characters" can be just as petty and 
arbitrary in their cruelty as some of the "bad characters".  Which 
is part of the reason these books garner so much discussion.  If 
this were a Dahl book, for example, there'd be little discussion 
over who's good or bad.  But JKR *loves* to set up a pretty picture 
and then pull the rug out from under her readers.

So one can use overall niceness as a factor in determining whether 
or not a character is good, but it cannot be relied upon enough to 
be the *only* factor used, IMO.

> >>Renee: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/153015
> What I notice first and foremost is that JKR says: "Go for a nice 
> man in the first place."
> Now we may all have our own ideas about what the word "nice" really
> means, but in this quote the author of the books uses it as the
> opposite of "bad". This sheds an interesting light on the "nice vs.
> good" debate.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I snipped the interview quote (just follow the link above to see it) 
but JKR rather cleverly stops talking about the characters at all.  
She's not talking about Snape and Draco, she's talking about Rickman 
and Felton.  And she's talking about "nice boy" vs. "bad boy" in a 
sexual attraction sort of way, not as a morality call.

If JKR *really* didn't want her readers going for the "bad boys" in 
her books, she wouldn't write them so attractively.  She'd undercut 
their hurt/comfort moments, as she does with Ron.  Instead, she 
gives Draco scenes where he's almost noble in his defiance.  And she 
has Snape act with principle when faced with a man he hates.

JKR keeps us guessing in her books.  She's not about to turn around 
and reveal all in a promotional tour interview.  Or at least, I sure 
hope she doesn't. <g>

> >>Lanval:
> Let me try again.
> Character A works for the side of good, but is a generally nasty, 
> disagreeable person. He tends to hurt others by his attitude. 
> Character B also works for the side of good, but is generally a 
> friendly and kind person. He rarely hurts others by his 
> attitude.
> What I take exception to is this claim: that Character A not only 
> deserves to be called as 'good' as Character B, but that A is 
> actually superior, because B's niceness and kindness are a waste   
> of time, and/or a sign of insincerity. 

Betsy Hp:
Has this argument been made?  Those who distrust Lupin (Character B, 
I presume?) don't distrust him *because* he is nice, but because he 
seems to put being nice above doing the right thing.

Though, actually, I don't think it's the niceness that's the 
problem.  I think Lupin really hates the idea of rocking the boat.  
So he tends to shrink back when perhaps it would be better for him 
to step forward (the pensieve memory, the information on Sirius in 
PoA).  I think Lupin uses his pleasant nature as a bit of a shield, 
though I'm not sure I'm prepared to call his nature fake or 
insincere.  (I'm not prepared to call much on Lupin.  He's a mystery 
to me. <g>)

Do I think Snape (and I'm talking DDM!Snape here) is as good or 
better than Lupin?  I think Snape has done more for the Order than 
Lupin.  And I think Snape is more likely to step forward and take 
action if he thinks it's called for.  But I'm not sure I'd say Snape 
is *better* than Lupin, as a human being.  They are two very 
different men with two very different styles and their own strengths 
and weaknesses.  Dumbledore seems to trust Snape more than Lupin, 
but I'm not sure why that is, so I'm not sure Dumbledore is correct.

> >>Lanval:
> And now there seems to be another claim, namely that Character A 
> deserves higher praise, because as a nasty person, it's so much 
> harder for him to be 'good'...? Sorry, but no.

Betsy Hp:
Gosh, I haven't heard that particular argument.  Myself, I don't 
think Snape is fighting *against* his personality by choosing to 
side with Dumbledore.  I think Snape has a very strong core set of 
principles that match well with Dumbledore's.  I really think Snape 
came home, as it were, when he joined with the Order back in the 
day.  So I don't see him struggling with being "good", except for 
when it forces him to suffer fools. <g>

I don't think Snape has a... pleasant personality, but I don't think 
he's quite as anti-social and rough as first thought.  The comfort 
with which he invited Narcissa and Bellatrix into his home suggests 
that Snape can actually play well with others, if he chooses to.  
But he's not going to go out of his way to make others comfortable 
just for their sake alone.

Betsy Hp