Draco's potion making skills WAS: Scary Teachers - Good Teachers

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 153093

a_svirn:
> > But shouldn't we go with the "innocent until proven guilty" 
premise  rather than "guilty until proven innocent"? Only in a really
 rotten society, oppressed and run by fear one remark from the likes
of Draco Malfoy would suffice to ruin a venerable doyen's reputation.
> >
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, yes, of course. "Innocent till proven guilty", but should we 
> also automatically discard Draco's testimony just because we want 
> him to be good in something and he may not be so? (Replying in 
> general, not just to your argument)
> 
> I mean, don't get me wrong - Marchbank may not be in Malfoy's 
> pocket, she likely is not as in 'taking bribes", but why wouldn't 
> she come for dinner as one Ministry employee to another?
> 
> Carol's point about her residing her position at Wisengamot to 
> protest Umbridge appointment speaks very well of her integrity, of 
> course.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/153058
> 
> I don't think her being friends with Dumbledore is relevant though, 
> since as we know Dumbledore thought that Fake!Moody was his friend 
> too <snip>

Carol:
Thanks for acknowledging my point about Madam Marchbanks resigning her
position on the Wizengamot speaking well of her integrity.

My point was not only  that Madam Marchbanks seems to be a person of
unimpeachable courage and integrity, a friend and supporter of
Dumbledore and an opponent of Umbridge, but also that there's no
indication whatever of unfairness in the OWL grading. 

Even if Madam Marchbanks visited the Malfoys as Draco claims, and we
know that Draco doesn't always tell the truth, it's highly unlikely
that she was influenced by them. She is clearly opposed to the
Ministry's interference at Hogwarts; she and her friends are all
Dumbledore supporters; and she is not afraid to stand up for what she
believes in. Interestingly, Professor Tofty is also a friend of
Tiberius Ogden's (the other person who resigned from the Wizengamot in
protest of Umbridge's takeover). The OWL examiners in general seem to
be ancient witches and wizards of unimpeachable integrity. There is
not one shred of evidence that they grade the OWLs unfairly, as
Harry's, Ron's, and Hermione's marks all indicate. (We can quibble
about Hermione's E in DADA, but that is not Professor Marchbanks' doing.)

As for her being DD's friend not being relevant because DD was fooled
by Crouch!Moody, are you suggesting that she and the other examiners
are polyjuiced DEs? That seems unlikely in the extreme.
> 
Alla:
> Lucius KNOWS people, I see no reason to not think that Marchbank is 
> one of them.

Carol:
Quite true. But knowing people and being influenced or intimidated by
them are two different things. Madam Marchbanks may know Lucius
Malfoy, but knowing him is not likely to influence her in favor of his
son. If anything, it would cause her to keep a close eye on Draco to
be sure that he's not cheating.

Alla:

> 
> And to go back to Draco's potion making skills - there is one 
> reference which Carol brought up earlier that he cut the plants 
> well, but there is NO reference of Snape ever praising his potion, 
> not ONCE ( as far as I remember of course), but there is plenty of 
> evidence that Draco is sucking up to all teachers AND there is an 
> evidence that Snape has a very long special connection to Malfoys 
> family.

Carol:
I didn't say anything about Draco's cutting skills, though I see no
reason to doubt them considering that he was faking an injured arm and
manipulating Ron in that scene. I believe it was Magpie who discussed
that scene.

I did bring up "the perfect way that Draco stewed his slugs" in the
very first lesson. I very much doubt that Snape would have called
attention to the slugs unless they were indeed stewed perfectly.

Sucking up to teachers has no connection to Draco's abilities. Neither
Snape nor McGonagall is going to be fooled by such tactics. As I said,
we see no evidence of Draco's potions ever turning out like cement or
shooting off green sparks or of his having any sort of difficulty with
them. Had that happened, Harry or Hermione would have noticed, just as
 they notice Goyle's.

But sucking up to teachers has no bearing on Draco's OWL Potions mark,
which is not given by a teacher but by Madam Marchbanks, whose
integrity I have already established. 

Alla:
> Malfoy is in on a lot of information that Harry is not. As I quote 
> upthread he knows about Triwizard tournament earlier than Harry and 
> co do, he also knows lots about Sirius Black, even that Black 
> supposedly betrayed Harry's parents, while Harry still has no clue.

Carol:
I moved this point out of the discussion of Madam Marchbanks because I
don't think it has any bearing on Madam M's integrity. I do, however,
agree that Draco knows things he shouldn't know, and there is only one
person who could have told him these things--his father.

Draco comes to school perfectly willing to be friends with Harry and
even introduces himself and his friends to Harry on the train. I
suspect he does so because Lucius has hinted that Harry may be the
next Dark Lord in the making. (Snape says in "Spinner's End" that many
of the DEs thought that Baby!Harry's innate Dark magic enabled him to
defeat the Dark Lord.) Snape's first Potions lesson dispels this illusion.

In CoS, Draco (whose father put the diary in Ginny's cauldron as part
of his plot to bring down the "Mudblood-lover" Dumbledore by opening
the Chamber of Secrets) knows that when the Chamber of Secrets was
opened before, "a Mudblood died." He has clearly gathered that much
from his father, who nevertheless has not revealed to him who the Heir
of Slytherin is or even the nature of the monster in the Chamber. (I'm
not sure that Lucius himself knows that it's a Basilisk.)

In PoA, Draco taunts Harry about Sirius Black: ("If it were me, I'd
want revenge!" quoted from memory.) Clearly he knows, as Harry does
not, that the Potters' supposed betrayer was their good friend. He may
even know that Black was Harry's godfather. It's unclear whether Draco
has overheard his parents talking or whether Lucius directly informed
him, but Draco uses his superior knowledge to taunt Harry.

In GoF, he taunts Ron with not knowing about the TWT, which his own
father (who has connections with Fudge) has told him about, whereas
Ron's father has kept it quiet. (He does, however, know about it, as
does Percy.)

In OoP, Draco makes a sarcastic remark about "*dogging* his footsteps,
which Harry and Hermione correctly interpret to mean that Lucius has
seen Sirius Black in dog form on Platform 9 3/4. Later Snape informs
Black that Malfoy Sr. has indeed seen him. Still later, an article
appears in the Daily Prophet indicating that a reliable source,
clearly Lucius Malfoy, has reported to the Ministry (probably directly
to Fudge) that Black is hiding in London. Draco also has some idea
about Hagrid's embassy to the giants, taunting Harry that maybe Hagrid
is involved in something "too big" for him to handle. Of course,
Macnair, who also goes to see the giants, would know about Hagrid, and
Macnair is both a Ministry employee and a DE. So either through Fudge
or Macnair, Lucius Malfoy knows about Hagrid's mission to the giants
and has passed this tidbit on to Draco, who of course has a grudge of
his own against Hagrid because of the Buckbeak incident.

At any rate, I'm not sure what point you're making here. Yes, Draco
knows more than he should about matters that are more Harry's business
than his (matters about which no one has bothered to inform Harry),
but the explanation is simple. Lucius Malfoy (until his arrest) has
both DE and Ministry connections, and is on close personal terms with
Fudge. But none of this has any bearing on Draco's marks in Potions,
either in Snape's class or on his Potions OWL. Draco only knows what
he knows because of his adored father's connections--and he flaunts
his superior knowledge, such as it is, in front of Harry and Ron to
torment them. He certainly does not use it to improve his marks,
either in his classes or on his OWLS.

Carol, still seeing no evidence that Draco did not deserve an O on his
Potions OWL or that Draco could in any way influence Madam Marchbanks