[HPforGrownups] Re: Draco's potion making skills WAS: Scary Teachers - Good Teachers

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 153107

> Magpie:
>> But what is the other possibility and why isn't it revealed later?
>> That Marchbanks is actually best buds with the Malfoys and so
> fixing
>> exams?
>
> Alla:
>
> Not necessarily, NO, just the fact that she was at Malfoys house for
> dinner.

Magpie:
Oh, well there I agree.  She may absolutely have been over to their house 
for dinner.  I just don't think this has any effect on Draco's OWL grade. 
It's not "who you know," it's "what you know."

> Alla:
>
> Isn't it the whole point though? That to get an "O" in Snape class
> is so very hard, that is why he such a good teacher. If it is  hard,
> Draco must be not just good, but outstanding student in Potions and
> yes, to me that needs foreshadowing, not just him sitting with the
> book, but him actually doing something very complicated.

Magpie:
I don't think it's as hard to get an O as all that.  I understand why people 
are looking to that number trying to see a reflection of Snape's teaching, 
which is how this got started, but I don't think every O Snape gets is an 
amazing thing he's done any more than an amazing thing Malfoy's done in 
getting an O.

Maybe that's the issue.  I mean, they're not getting an O in Snape's class, 
they're getting an O on a standardized test.  I think that Snape's class in 
itself is difficult (Umbridge mentions they're working on advanced stuff), 
that the kids work at a fairly high level, and maybe that's why I assume 
Snape always gets plenty of EEs and Os in his class.  I don't think Draco 
and Hermione are the only ones.

> Alla:
>
> Oh, Okay, I am glad that we agree that Snape favors Draco because of
> his personal connections.
>
> The only thing we seem to disagree on is that Snape will not have
> favorite not performing to his standards. I mean, it is possible of
> course, I just need the signs.
>
> We do see though Snape favoring other Slytherins, not just Draco ,
> no?

Magpie:
He favors Slytherin as a house, siding with them in hallway altercations, 
getting them time on the Pitch.  He favors his house definitely.  But I have 
a hard time imagining that a student he seems to like personally is going to 
be one of the "dunderheads."  Crabbe and Goyle, for instance, are 
Slytherins, and I think Snape favors them as such, but it doesn't surprise 
me that they don't seem to share the same kind of relationship with Snape 
that Draco does.  They seem to be judged on their real performance in his 
class.

> Alla:
>
> But why what is shown as sucking up is not that? What are you basing
> this on?
>
> On the contrary, we see that Draco is sucking up to EVERYBODY, as
> Neri argued, we see a PATTERN.

Magpie:
If you mean that Draco has a pattern of trying to appear to be a good boy 
and get some teachers to like him sure that's a pattern.  I was challenging 
it in Snape's case because "sucking up" to me implies deceit, that Draco is 
faking positive feelings for the person he doesn't really have, and in 
Snape's case I think he genuinely does admire him.  I think of Draco and 
Umbridge as a better example of Draco in true suck up mode--he obviously 
doesn't really admire Umbridge but gets the IS squad in return--it doesn't 
help him with his OWL grades that we see.

Alla:>
> I mean, to Mcgonagall, to Slughhorn, etc. That is what Draco does. I
> mean I understand that Draco sucking up to Snape weakens Darco is a
> good student argument, but we see him doing it on the regular basis
> to other teachers.

Magpie:
Draco sucking up to Snape doesn't weaken the argument that he's a good 
student.  I only challenged it in Snape's case because, as I said, I think 
"sucking up" implies a kind of deceit that Draco doesn't feel towards Snape. 
However, if you're just meaning that Draco tries to behave positively 
towards teachers in hopes they will favor him in return, yes, he does that. 
But it doesn't seem to have anything to do with his grades.  Umbridge favors 
him with the IS squad, but I don't think McGonagall, Snape or Slughorn is 
shown to change his grades because of his personality. In fact that always 
seemed like one of Malfoy's central problems that everything he's been 
taught about this kind of stuff is wrong. His father may act like it's the 
way the world works but Draco's world doesn't work that way.

Hermione is a brown-noser who always has to show off in class.  I wouldn't 
be surprised to hear her described as a suck up by some of her classmates 
but I don't think it affects her grades one way or the other.  In fact, 
Malfoy in CoS tries to claim she's the teacher's favorite, as if this 
explains her place in the class, but he's wrong.

Alla:
> Are you just saying that Draco does not really suck up to Snape
> because of unreliable narrator again?
> If so, unfortunately I don't find it convincing. Sorry!
> If Draco did not demonstrate the pattern of such behaviour, that
> would be a bit different story, IMO.

Magpie:
I'm saying that Draco likes Snape and I don't think his behaving positively 
towards him is artificial.  He genuinely admires him, imo.  He does not 
genuinely admire Umbridge, so his behavior towards her reads more like true 
sucking up.  However, I'm also saying that Draco's behavior towards teachers 
has never been shown to get him grades, particularly on the OWLS, which 
aren't given by teachers.

Alla:>
> Oh, and we do see Draco  trying to flatter Snape in class. Are you
> saying that this is can be read as something else, not sucking up?
>
> "Sir," said Malfoy loudly. "Sir, why don't you apply for
> Headmaster's job?"
> "Now, now, Malfoy" said Snape, though he couldn't suppress  a thin-
> lipped smile. "Professor Dumbledore has only been suspended by the
> governors. I daresay he'll be back with us soon enough>"
>
> "Yeah, right," said Malfoy, smirking. "I expect you'd have  Father's
> vote, sir, if you wanted to apply for the job - I'll tell Father
> you're the best teacher here, sir ---" - CoS, paperback, p.267.

Magpie:
Heh--I love that scene and Snape's being unable to completely suppress a 
smile.  I think Draco absolutely does think Snape's the best teacher in the 
school.  But what does it have to do with Draco's grades?  Because I think 
he still wound up graded the same as everyone else--and even when he didn't 
come in first Snape was still his favorite teacher.

-m