Nice vs. Good, honesty, and Snape: Was Snape, Apologies, and Redemption

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 153137

> 
> houyhnhnm:
> 
> I do not look at niceness with contempt.  My problem with Lupin has
> nothing to do with his niceness.  He was my favorite character from
> the time he was intoduced in PoA up until the pensieve scene in 
OotP.
>  I glossed right over his unprofessionable behavior toward Snape, 
his
> failure to come clean with Dumbledore, his recklessness in rushing 
out
> without taking his potion, his willingness to participate in a 
summary
> execution, even the recounting of his behavior as a Marauder when he
> was supposed to have been staying in the Shrieking Shack during his
> transformations for the protection of Hogwarts.
> 

Lanval:
His 'unprofessional behavior' with Snape? Are you referring to the 
Boggart scene? 
If so, all I have to say is this: if Snape hadn't been overcome by 
utter disgust upon merely seeing Lupin & class entering the staff 
room, and had refrained from making a gratuitously nasty remark about 
Neville, I doubt Lupin would have picked Neville as his first example 
on how to fight a boggart. And how would Lupin know that Neville's 
worst fear would turn out to be Snape? Once Neville revealed this, 
there wasn't much Lupin could have done. The way to fight a boggart 
is to render it ridiculous, to laugh at it. Lupin didn't invent that 
particular defense. Nor did he spread the story all about the school.

In other words, Snape's own nastiness came right back to bite him in 
the butt. 


> I could not overlook his failure to step in, when he was a 
*prefect*,
> and his friends were tormenting another student just because "he
> exists". My attitute toward Lupin and Snape, whom I had previously
> loved to hate, began to change at that time.  I re-read PoA and I
> began to see Lupin's behavior in a very different light.


Lanval:
So you think it's fair to judge a person's character by something he 
did, or rather failed to do, at the age of fifteen? 



> As a child werewolf, Lupin had no hope of attending school. 
> Dumbledore made it possible for him to do so; he even made him a
> prefect.  Lupin repaid Dumbledore by abdicating his responsibility 
as
> a prefect and running loose as a werewolf with his three friends,
> thereby putting the whole community at risk.
> 
> As an adult werewolf, Lupin had no hope of gainful employment.  
Again
> Dumbledore gave him a chance, and again Lupin betrayed Dumbledore's
> trust.  These are serious transgressions.  Yes, Lupin felt bad about
> what he was doing or failing to do, but the bad feelings *never
> changed his behavior*.

He gave DD notice, thus accepting resposibility for his failure. 
Where in the next three books has he continued any kind of 
untrustworthy behavior? He takes on what appear to be extremely 
dangerous assignments (as a spy, which sounds every bit as perilous 
as what Snape is doing. Perhaps more so, since he spends much more 
time close to the enemy than Snape does. Then there's Fenrir 
Greyback. Enough said.). He pushes Tonks away, to a large part 
because he fears he's too dangerous. Seems as if he's become very, 
very careful about putting others at risk. DD, I might add, doesn't 
consider Lupin a lost cause. He in fact continues to trust in him.

We also don't hear about any transgressions during the post-Hogwarts 
years, up to his return as a teacher. Considering that he had no 
wolfsbane, he must have done well when it came taking the necessary 
precautions.



> Snape's transgressions are worse.  I grant that.  Even if he never
> participated in an act of murder or torture, if he slithered out of
> action every time, whatever he did do may have enabled the murdering
> and torturing, and just by joining the Death Eaters, IMO, he shares
> responsibility for whatever acts they committed.
> 

> The difference is that when Snape realized what he was doing was
> wrong, *he changed his ways* [I know some people don't think so, but
> for me it is a settled question.  I'm not going to argue DDM vs ESE!
> Snape anymore].  And he did so with very little prospect of ever 
being
> rewarded.

Lanval:
And for me it's anything but a settled question, so we'll just have 
to leave it at that...



> What keeps people nice or good most of the time? Are we not nice
> partly because we want others to be nice to us?  Are we not good
> because we want our family and our friends to think well of us 
rather
> than ill?  Isn't it a kind of social inertia that keeps most people 
on
> the straight and narrow?


Lanval:
Do tell me where the human race would be without this "social 
behavior"... It's bad enough as it is. Try to imagine a world full of 
Snapes.

 
> Lupin wants to be liked so badly he is willing to compromise his
> values and commit acts he knows are wrong.  Snape, who had cut all
> ties to the law-abiding WW, wrenched himself from his headlong fall
> into evil and set himself back on the right path because, when 
brought
> face-to-face with what he had become, he rejected evil and chose 
good
> for its own sake alone.  He will never be liked by those he has 
rejoined. 
> 
> Your hypothetical character B may be better than character A, but
> neither is a very good match with any actual character in the Harry
> Potter books.  Too much has been left out.
>
Lanval:
Well, I could argue the same for your characterization of Snape, 
since you won't allow for any interpretation but the one you consider 
cut in stone.

But hey, it's been an interesting discussion. Personally I don't care 
whether Snape lives, dies, is turned into the Giant Squid's new best 
friend, is revealed as one of the most interesting villains in modern 
literature, or turns out to have been DDM all along. As long as it's 
explained well, I'll live with it. Snape's not the story for me. Not 
by a long shot. 

I do have a feeling, though, that nothing we've seen from Fandom thus 
far will compare to what will ensue once Book 7 is released. 

*stocks up on popcorn and candy, and settles in for the wait*