[HPforGrownups] Snape and Draco again was I see no difference

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 160856

--zgirnius, still not 100% convinced, but now finding that comment by
Snape.odd.

Magpie:
I wonder if it's the way the line is described without any sign of humor on 
Snape's part--I mean, you'd expect him to be hiding a smirk or something if 
the line was supposed to be a zinger.  The fact that he says it like such a 
pronouncement seems to make it more serious on his part, more calculated, 
like he thought about it.  And I'd almost expect it to be more of an impulse 
if it were a true insult.  Plus, as you say, he just doesn't usually insult 
peoples' looks.

Still, I can't see any other way to interpret the line, really.  Maybe it's 
just a sign that Snape can be a jerk in ways we hadn't seen before.:-)

> Pippin:
> I'm not so sure.
> I agree that's Harry's PoV, but I think Draco had been sucking up to Snape
> the way Dudley was to Aunt Marge and for the same reason, to get favors.

Magpie:
I know this is a popular fan interpretation and it is open, but I have 
always felt it just was not true.  Whether he does any minor sucking up to 
Snape I can't say (that wouldn't be at odds with true respect), but his 
feelings towards Snape have always seemed to me to come across as completely 
naturally respectful because he's a fan of Snape's.  In CoS, for instance, 
he's often described as sucking up when he says Snape would make a good 
headmaster and to me that scene comes across completely genuinely as a kid 
who really would like to be able to do something for Snape.  His offer is 
funny because of how naive it is, but I don't think he's sucking up to get 
anything, and that Snape's being unable to hide a smile is a sign that he 
sees that.  I think the scene in OotP is a good example too, where Draco 
interrupts the Occlumency lesson.  The narrator almost never misses a chance 
to show kids being fake that way, and the Draco/Snape scenes aren't written 
too much like that.  Sure Draco may make a point of backing Snape up more in 
class where Snape can see it, like by laughing at his jokes out loud, but I 
don't think that has to be a sign his respect is fake.

Piippin:
> Draco being a better actor than Dudley,  Harry was taken in. I'm not so
> sure that Snape was. I think Snape knew that Draco was trying to
> manipulate him, but felt, like Petunia, that being indulgent was the way
> to show love.

Magpie:
And Snape really strikes you as Petunia in the way he would show love and 
react to bratty kids?  Where is he even all that indulgent to Draco that we 
see?  In a way that's purely about indulging Draco?  Because I see Snape 
usually, when indulging Draco, getting his own licks in at the Gryffindors. 
I think JKR knows how to demonstrate the kind of relationship you're 
describing very well and does't write it with these two.

I'm just kind of surprised you'd read Harry's thinking that it's surprising 
to hear Draco speak to Snape without respect as a sign that Harry's been 
taken in all those years.  To me it seems like a classic case of the author 
using Harry to underline what's going on. I would think that if Draco were 
truly sucking up Harry would have no trouble seeing it after his years with 
Dudley.  He doesn't miss the deception when Draco's doing it to Slughorn or 
Umbridge.  HBP actually seemed to often have Harry having to let go of his 
habit of referring to anything Slytherin as being fake.  Plus Draco's not 
being all that disrespectful to Snape in that scene.  There are lines he's 
still not crossing, and when Snape refers to their past relationship being 
important it's not like Draco proudly announces how fake it was.

Pippin:>
> Then, in HBP, Draco came under the spell of  the bigger bullies on the
> playground  and didn't think he needed Snape any more, just when
> he actually needed him like never before.

Magpie:
Again, I couldn't disagree more.  Draco's feelings about Snape in HBP are 
far more complex, imo, than just thinking he doesn't need him any more and 
showing the lack of respect he's always felt for him.  I also think their 
storyline in HBP depends on the genuine affection and respect.  And I don't 
see Snape as that much of a sucker, so pathetic that the one positive 
relationship he seems to pursue is him being manipulated.

Pippin:
> Snape protests that he took the vow to help Draco, and I think that
> seemingly offhand explanation is the whole truth. Snape saw Draco
> about to be crushed between Dumbledore and Voldemort (neither
> being dragged into the arena nor choosing to enter, but sauntering
> in with the idiotic predatory instincts of a kitten who thinks
> it's a jungle cat) and he had to do something.

Magpie:
I think Snape knows all too well how Draco is in danger and how he's 
behaving stupidly, but I think he also knows his behavior has little to do 
with Snape being soft and spoiling him so that Draco doesn't really respect 
him.  As I said, I think Draco's challenging Snape because he is a past 
figure of respect, just as teenaged boys challenging their fathers do so not 
because they have never respected them but because they do.  (And in Snape's 
case I think he's getting stuff that might have been directed at Lucius as 
well.)

Pippin:>
> If there's an adolescent rebellion here, it might be Snape against
> Dumbledore. I can just imagine Dumbledore at his most infuriating
> don't-worry-I-have-a-secret-planishness as Snape discovers that
> Draco is being drawn into this plot, and Snape feeling that if he
> doesn't try to save Draco, nobody will.

Magpie:
Despite Snape's frequent adolescent moments in canon, I think his 
relationship with Dumbledore has become far more mature.  And yes, I do 
think the two of them are probably disagreeing on letting Draco find his own 
way, with Snape wanting to step in and save the kid from himself.  I just 
disagree that this in any way follows a Snape who's treated Draco like an 
indulgent parent and so lost control because Draco's been sucking up to him 
all these years and never really felt it.  Or that Draco's not the one in 
adolescent rebellion when he's an adolescent rebelling.

Pippin:
>
> Much as I'd prefer ACID POPS or a convoluted SpyGames! explanation
> where Dumbledore's behind it all, this is a reason for the vow that
> fits the parents and children theme. It also provides an explanation
> that Dumbledore could conceivably accept  without compromising
> his trust in Snape. Dumbledore would accept that Snape risked
> everything in a desperate attempt to save a child.

Magpie:
I agree he's trying to save a child--though perhaps I'd say a youth instead, 
perhaps one Snape relates to given his own past.  Where I disagree is in 
saying that the parent/child theme necessarily means Snape must have been a 
soft, overindulgent parent and a sucker to boot. I think Draco, unlike 
Dudley, has always been a kid capable of true respect.  He just doesn't 
always give it to the best people.  Snape's the best Death Eater ever and 
has his respect.  I think Draco in HBP brings out the adult side of Snape 
more than the adolescent side, but that doesn't make other aspects of their 
relationship in the past an act on both their parts.

Pippin:>
> In a way, the climax of Half-Blood Prince isn't the fall from the
> tower, it's what happens a moment later when the former Half-
> Blood Prince grabs Draco by the scruff of the neck. I think that's
> the first honest interaction between them, and maybe the first
> step out of Snape's own very protracted adolescence. For that one
> moment, he's not playing any role, he's being who he truly is.

Magpie:
I think it's a great moment too, but would never call that the first honest 
moment between them. It says something about their roles with regards to 
each other, but I think it's also showing that Draco's possible step in the 
right direction has been delayed and he's back in his child position.  I 
just don't think that child ever related to Snape the way Dudley relates to 
Aunt Marge.

-m