My Take on the Whole Snape/Draco/Dumbledore/Secret Keeper Thing

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 161110


> Marion:
> 
> Where do people get this strange idea that Snape and Evans were 
friends? Or that Snape was secretly in love with her?
> Does it look to you or anybody on this list that Lily Evans even 
*knew* who Snape was in that Pensieve scene? 
> Reread the scene.

> Lily Evans storms into the scene. And what does she do? Does she 
ask, "Oh dear, are you allright Snape"? Does she even *look* at 
Severus Snape? Is this about James and Sirius tormenting a friend or 
even a class mate?
> No.
> Lily rages on and on about *James*. About how AWFUL he is. About 
how much of a showoff he is. About the way he wears his hair and the 
way he wears his clothes and the way he acts. 
> "Oh James Potter, you are just too AWFUL and I haven't been 
watching you like a hawk at all because how else would I know about 
your Quidditch prowess/hairstyle/etc.etc".
> 
> They are *flirting*! Lily and James are *flirting*!

wynnleaf,
While I know there are certainly those who think that this scene 
*ended* a friendship between Snape and Lily, I have always felt that 
if that's so, it is a huge discredit to Lily.  As you say, there is 
no real acknowledgement of Snape personally in her comments.  But 
worse, she *leaves* him at the mercy of James and Sirius just 
because he calls her a bad name.  Granted, the word he used was 
terrible, but if she was really his friend she should not have left 
him at the mercy of his enemies.  

(By the way, I don't know about other cultures and countries, but in 
the USA one of the worst racial slurs is commonly used *between* 
people from the same race as an insult, and even as a joke, but is 
not taken as nearly so insulting as if the same slur comes from 
people *not* of that racial group.)

Marion 
> Lily is so taken up in their little flirting game that she doesn't 
even realise that this is a real, live, human being lying there on 
the ground, choking on a mouth-soaping spell.
> 
> Now, to be the butt of a couple of bullies is one thing. To be the 
prop in a bully's little flirt is quite another. 

wynnleaf,
Interesting observation.  I certainly agree that Snape was the prop 
in James' flirtation.  And there are definitely girls who would use 
a person in Snape's position as a prop in a flirtation.  And of 
course, Lupin *does* say that even though Harry assumed Lily hated 
James in that scene, she actually liked James.  Not that I always 
believe Lupin, but he's not necessarily wrong either.

Marion
> 
> So what does he do? He flings the foulest insult he can think of 
in her face. And it works. She snaps out of the flirting game, 
realises that this is a real human being that is being tormented 
just so James and she could have their little flirt and she is 
mortified! So what does *she* do? After she quickly slaps down Snape 
of course. She blows up at *James*. Because James is the culprit who 
lured her into the game and made her an accomplice.

wynnleaf,
Could be.  I've certainly known girls who would have those kinds of 
motivations and use similar behaviors.  You know, I don't know that 
this is actually what JKR had in mind here, but the perspective 
*could* work in my opinion.  Only thing is, at some point I think 
JKR will make sure we know why exactly this is Snape's Worst 
Memory.  How would she tell us Lily was really using Snape as a 
flirtation prop?

Marion
> Snape a racist who hates Muggleborns? I doubt it. I don't get that 
message from this scene. 

wynnleaf,
A agree that using a strong "racial" slur on someone in a very, very 
high stress situation is *not* particularly convincing evidence that 
the person is a racist.  Further, as regards joining Voldemort, we 
actually have comments from several other characters that people had 
varying reasons for joining Voldemort.  No where are we told that 
only pureblood elitists joined Voldemort, or that everyone joined 
because they supported a pureblood agenda.  And that's all of 
the "evidence" that Snape had bought into the pureblood elitist 
ideas.

Marion
Snape in love with Lily? Why?! She hardly knows who he is. He 
doesn't even register on her radar unless Snape insults her with the 
worst insult he knows he could fling at her. She isn't there to 
rescue him. This isn't about him at all, this is about James and 
Lily.

> Why, why, why are people so convinced that Snape Loved Lily? *I* 
wouldn't love a self-centered little bint who used me in a flirting 
game with my worst enemy. And even if Snape *did* fancy Lily once, 
this little scene must've killed that off quickly.

wynnleaf,
Personally, I think Snape did care for Lily, but that it happened 
*after* this scene.  Evidence?  Some in what Snape *doesn't* do.  If 
Lily had the motivations as you say in this incident and Snape knew 
it, then unless something drastic changed his opinions of her, I can 
hardly believe that he wouldn't have been making insults to Harry 
about Lily right along with James.  

But in fact Snape never ever mentions Lily to Harry at all.  So I 
don't think he had any dislike of her -- else why miss the chance to 
say so to Harry?  It is Snape's complete lack of derogatory comments 
about Lily that makes many suspect he liked her (at least as a 
friend).  

Add to that Dumbledore's conviction that it was Snape's regret over 
Voldemort targeting the Potters that made him turn away from 
Voldemort.  And it wasn't just a simple regret, but his *greatest* 
regret.  Many readers think that there's no way Snape could have 
regreted to that degree putting James in danger -- which leaves 
Lily.  

And then there's Slughorn's comparison of Harry to Lily, when in 
fact Harry is using Snape's 6th year work.  It may be purely 
coincidental (like JKR just coincidentally wrote that -- right), but 
it seems possible that Lily and Snape (both obviously in the smaller 
6th year potions class), worked together.  

Last, why is Snape so angry that James' "arrogance" caused him to 
trust in his friend as secret keeper and ultimately lead to his 
death?  Why would Snape care?  Some suppose it's because then Snape 
wouldn't be able to fulfill his life-debt, but while that might 
frustrate Snape, it doesn't seem a powerful enough motivator to make 
him so, so, so furious about it.  Peter just isn't that torn up over 
*his* life-debt -- so there's not some magical compulsion that Snape 
was living under.  However, if Snape's hatred over it was 
intensified because he thought James' "arrogance" led to Lily's 
death, then that fury makes more sense.

Marion
> But if it is one thing we readers must've learned by now, it is 
that what we are being *told* is totally different from what we are 
shown.

wynnleaf,
I agree.  But I also think that when we are shown something that 
ends up being different from whatever Harry's point of view assumes, 
JKR will find a way to tell us the truth.  I could see her finding a 
way to explain that Snape has a big regret for calling Lily a 
mudblood, but I can't see her explaining that Lily was flirting and 
using Snape as a prop.  How would that come to light?  Harry's 
already gotten Sirius and Lupin's "take" on the event.  He wouldn't 
believe whatever Snape told him about it.  The only other option was 
if some additional person, like maybe Hermione, saw the memory and 
said, "Harry, she was *using* him."  

In general, while you might be correct on this one, I tend to think 
that if I can't envision a way that JKR could correct our thinking 
on an event, we should take the more straightforward explanation.

wynnleaf, who thought Marion's interpretation of Lily very in 
character for certain girls.