CHAPDISC: HBP24, Sectumsempra

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 161285

> >>Carol:
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter
> 24, Sectumsempra.
> <snip>
> Ginny tells her to give it a rest and reminds her that Draco was
> trying to use an Unforgiveable Curse. When the girls turn away from
> each other after a few more angry words, Harry feels oddly        
> cheerful.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Okay - you didn't ask about this, but I recall discussions about it 
in the past and since this is a fight between two girls I have a 
hard time choosing between (heh) I just had to throw in my two cents.

I liked that Ginny shut Hermione down, here.  Hermione was playing 
mother and doing her emotionally manipulative thing (like Hermione 
really cares about quidditch) so I was glad that someone actually 
called her on it.  Even if it had to be Ginny. <g>

> Discussion Questions: 
> 2. Lavender and Dean are both jilted in this chapter. What is your
> reaction, if any, to their jealousy and/or suffering? Which one do 
> you feel is more deserving of sympathy, and why?

Betsy Hp:
I agree with Ceridwen...

> >>Ceridwen:
> I think both are deserving of some limited sympathy. These were not
> true loves of their lives after all;
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
... However, Magpie reminded me of something fairly interesting.

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> ...Dean's so upset he breaks a glass iirc. 

Betsy Hp:
He does.  Actually, Dean is holding a "shattered glass in his 
hand".  Which suggests to me that Dean isn't too happy. One could 
even assume a certain level of anger.  My question is, why doesn't 
Harry care about that?  I'd always thought all of the Gryffindor 
boys of that year were friends for the most part.  Dean even 
supported Harry in GoF.  But apparently Harry is okay boggarting 
Dean's girl?  Doesn't that break some sort of guy code or something?
 
> 3.  Why does Harry feel that going out with Ginny would be        
> disloyal to Ron and that he must choose between the two? What do   
> you think Ron's reaction would have been if Harry had leveled with 
> him?

Betsy Hp:
I agree with everyone.  Harry's being a big drama queen here and 
just creating difficulties for himself.  Ron is like the original 
H/G shipper.

> 4. Harry undergoes a number of temptations in this chapter, among 
> them to try out Sectumsempra on McLaggen and to use Felix Felicis 
> either to strengthen his chances with Ginny or to help him get    
> into the Room of Requirement so he can find out what Draco is up   
> to. What do these temptations reveal about Harry and about his    
> ability to deal with temptation in general? Might they foreshadow 
> a more serious temptation in Book 7?

Betsy Hp:
The strange thing is, for me these didn't really strike me as true 
temptations.  More like, passing fancies.  I don't know that I've 
ever seen Harry really face down a true Faustian type of 
temptation.  (Doesn't Dumbledore say that Harry's power is *not* 
feeling that sort of temptation?)

The closest I think Harry has come to temptation is the question of 
whether or not to kill Pettigrew in PoA, and whether or not to give 
into jealousy and hate Ron in OotP.


> 5. What was your initial reaction to Draco crying in the "bathroom"
> (restroom) and to Moaning Myrtle comforting him? Did that reaction
> change on a second reading after you understood what Draco was    
> trying to do? Why or why not? 

Betsy Hp:
Major, massive, huge relief.  JKR finally revealed that Draco *is* a 
real boy. <g>  And of course, relief too that we finally have proof 
that Draco is handsome.  (Myrtle only goes for the lookers. <g>)

Seriously, I was pleased that Harry was finally getting a glimpse of 
the "real" Draco -- not his bully persona.

> >>Jen: 
> I was moved by not only his tears but his general appearance
> and the fact that his only confidante is a ghost. That was
> indicative that if he ever did have true friends, he can't talk to
> them now. I doubt he's ever had real friendship.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Honestly, I feel like we got clues that Draco *does* have real 
friends.  That Pansy, Blaise, Crabbe and Goyle are willing to stand 
by him even when his reputation (his family name) has taken a big 
hit.  So I felt that Draco's very real isolation had more to do with 
the terrible journey he's on, and his attempt to protect his 
friends.  Keep them seperate from the madness Voldemort has trapped 
Draco in.

> 6.  Were you shocked that Harry would try out Sectumsempra under  
> these circumstances, especially given the label "For Enemies"? Why 
> or why not? What other options, if any, did he have in response to 
> Draco's attempted Crucio?

Betsy Hp:
I wasn't shocked that Harry used it.  It's use was heavily 
foreshadowed, and while I agree Harry probably didn't *need* it, I 
think it fit character-wise for Harry to use his brand new spell.  
(He likes to try things out while under pressure after all.)

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> The Prince came through as usual--he offered a spell to take care 
> of enemies and Harry, I think, instinctively reached for it. That 
> is, I think Harry does have a sort of instinctive connection to   
> the Prince and for all his faffing around with hexing in the      
> hallways when in a desperate circumstance he felt the same way    
> about "enemies" that the Prince did. I think that's what makes the 
> scene more disturbing.

Betsy Hp:
Oh yes, Snape and Harry are so incredibly much alike.  (I think 
that's why they rub each other the wrong way.)  And Harry *does* go 
into these sort of things with a need to win that I'm betting young 
Snape (he who refused to stay down) also felt.  And of course, that 
need to win can easily take someone in the wrong direction.

Ooh, and here's an interesting thought...  I wonder if the reason 
Harry doesn't go much for temptation scenes is because *Snape* has 
already gone through them for him.  Could their connection be that 
deep?  (I can certainly buy it, but I'm betting Alla's choking on 
something right now. And Lupinlore's firing up the old mulcher. <eg>)

> 7. Why did Snape and only Snape show up when Myrtle cried bloody
> murder? Could anyone else have saved Draco, or does Snape alone   
> know the countercurse? What does the songlike or chantlike nature 
> of the countercurse suggest to you about it or about Snape? 

Betsy Hp:
On a plotty, pragmatic level, Snape is Dumbledore's watchdog.  I'm 
betting he'd been pulled off Harry-duty (Dumbledore stepping up to 
plate, and all) and put on Draco-duty.  So as with Harry in the 
past, Snape is there when Draco needs him.

On a deeper or more character driven level, I *do* think Snape 
echoes some phoenix traits.  My most favorite Potter essay of all 
time here:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#scribbulus:essay:192

links Snape to various death gods and suggests that Snape actually 
personifies death in the books.  The phoenix, with its constant 
repetition of the life and death cycle, fits in with that particular 
archetype, I think.  

And as the death gods were generally really good healers, I think 
Snape did need to be the one to appear and save Harry from becoming 
a killer (accidentally or not).

> 8. Why do you think JKR included the reference to dittany in the   
> scene rather than merely having Snape take Draco up to the        
> hospital wing to be examined by Madam Pomfrey? What does it tell   
> us about Snape and/or Draco? 

Betsy Hp:
I think I might be alone in this, but I took the need for dittany as 
a sign of the seriousness of Draco's hurt.  Despite three passes of 
what appeared to be some very strong healing magic Draco still might 
scar.  I took it to mean that Harry really did come very close to 
killing Draco.
  
> 10. Harry uses, or tries to use, three of the HBP's spells in this
> chapter (Muffliato, Levicorpus, and Sectumsempra), and he hides his
> book rather than risk having it confiscated. Afterwards, he defends
> the Prince against Hermione's accusations. What does this behavior
> tell us about Harry and about his relationship with the boy he    
> knows only as the Half-Blood Prince?

Betsy Hp:
Harry has another school-boy crush. <g>  I think Harry really does 
connect with the Prince, and I honestly don't think it's a bad 
thing.  I don't see this friendship with young Snape as Harry going 
down a wrong path, and I agree with Harry that Snape did mark the 
spell as being "for enemies".  I don't think Hermione is correct in 
seeing the presence of the spell as a bad sign (oh the hypocrisy 
here).

I do think we're seeing young!Snape's growing anger with the world.  
But since I'm firmly DDM!Snape I don't think that anger will (or 
would have) ultimately lead Harry astray.  Because Harry isn't 
walking the same path at all, so the danger isn't there.  (Actually, 
the Prince may have been more dangerous, I think, in Hermione's 
hands.  She's the one most tempted by power, I think.)

> 11. Professor McGonagall tells Harry that he could have been      
> expelled. Why does Snape tell the staff "precisely what happened" 
> yet punish Harry only for being "a liar and a cheat"?

Betsy Hp:
In telling the precise story Snape nips rumors in the bud.  And the 
precise story is that Harry stupidly used a spell he doesn't know 
the effects of.  So he's not being punished for being dangerously 
violent.

> Why didn't he so much as threaten to expel Harry when he could     
> have done so? 

I really don't think Snape was ever that interested in expelling 
Harry.

> Are the Saturday detentions primarily intended to punish Harry by 
> tormenting him with his father's indiscretions or does this tactic 
> disguise Snape's real purpose for keeping Harry in his custody     
> every Saturday until the end of term?

Bit of both, really, IMO.  Snape does get Harry out of Draco's hair, 
which probably lowers the chance of a disasterous blow up of some 
kind or another.

> 12. Harry apparently feels only anger and resentment as he        
> undergoes his detention, with no thought of the reasons why Snape 
> assigned it. What has happened to Harry's horror and remorse? Has 
> he forgotten his own wrongdoing?
> <snip>

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> Whenever he does something that leads to serious consequences he   
> tends to either push the blame to someone else, justify himself   
> completely or just move on as the universe rights itself again.

> >>Jen: 
> I'm not sure that makes Harry different from a fair percentage
> of teenage boys who prefer action or avoidance to introspection.
> <snip>
> Plus, I think avoidance IS a sign of remorse for Harry
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree with Magpie that Harry does tend to avoid taking blame.  And 
I agree with Jen that it's typical behavior and possibly a coping 
mechanisim.

However, it does bother me that bad behavior on the part of the 
heroes is never explored within the books.  So far.  Will there be a 
reckoning in book 7?  Or is this a sort of enforced innocence, where 
Harry, having to play the part of innocent has his sins fobbed off 
on (or eaten by) convienient scapegoats?
 
> 13. Why do you think Snape continues to use his old office in the
> dungeon, complete with dead creatures floating in colorful potions,
> now that he's the DADA teacher and his classroom is on another     
> floor?

Betsy Hp:
Because making Snape move on top of everything else would have just 
been plain cruel on Dumbledore's part.  (The "Epitome of Goodness" 
doesn't make people move!!)

> 14. The chapter begins with Lavender breaking up with Ron, closely
> followed by Ginny breaking up with Dean, and ends with Harry
> celebrating Gryffindor's victory (achieved without him) by finally
> kissing Ginny. What do you think JKR is trying to convey by framing
> the chapter in this way? Does the ending feel appropriate or
> inappropriate in a chapter about Sectumsempra? (And what's up with
> that "hard, blazing look"?)

Betsy Hp:
Well you see, JKR is explaining that if you cut someone, you get the 
nookie.  (So you can take that cookie?)  Sorry.  I suppose we could 
connect the Sectumsempra curse with the pain of young love.  Neither 
of the trio end up happily without causing someone else pain.  Love 
hurts, etc., etc., etc.  (Oh, and don't forget the fluids... <eg>)

As to the "hard, blazing look" I actually kind of liked that. I 
know, I know, totally cheeze-ball of me, but while I'd have loved a 
more complex and "real" Ginny, I did like the warrior woman thing.  
If only it hadn't been pasted onto the sporty girl thing.  And the 
fiesty girl thing. And the oh so very popular girl thing.

Excellent discussion, Carol! 

Betsy Hp (so glad to be posting again -- it's been *years* y'all)