Snape's chanting was: Re: CHAPDISC: HBP24, Sectumsempra

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 161335


> wynnleaf wrote:
wondering
> > why so many people assume that the songlike spell was a "chant." No
> > where does the narration describe it as a chant.
> >
> > Perhaps many assume that the word "incantation" automatically means
> > that the words are done in a chant. This is not so.
> >
> > Some definitions of "incantation" include: <snip>
> >
> > "A formulaic use of words to produce a magical effect and to create
> > an intensifying emotional temperature. The words may be chanted or
> > spoken. It is very common in primitive literatures and is much used
> > by sorcerers and witches, and also for ritual purposes as in a
> > charm" princeton wordnet <snip>
> 
> > Because the words are formulaic or are recited, in no way means they
> > must be "chanted" and even chanted does not necessarily equate to
> > *rythmic* chanting, as some have supposed. In fact, because JKR
> > uses the word "songlike," I think we're being told that they were
> > *not* chanted at all, but were closer to being a song.

 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I wonder if you're using definition 2 of chant here, while I'm using
> definition 1:
> 
> Main Entry: 1chant
> Pronunciation: 'chant
> Function: verb
> Etymology: Middle English chaunten, from
> Anglo-French chanter, from
> Latin cantare, frequentative of canere to sing;
> akin to Old English
> hana rooster, Old Irish canid he sings
> intransitive verb
> 1 : to make melodic sounds with the voice; especially : to sing a chant
> 2 : to recite something in a monotonous repetitive tone <protesters
> were chanting outside>
> transitive verb
> 1 : to utter as in chanting
> 2 : to celebrate or praise in song or chant
 
> And here's the definition of "enchant," which is closely related to
> "incantation":
> 
> Main Entry: en·chant
> Pronunciation: in-'chant, en-
> Function: transitive verb
> Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French enchanter, from Latin
> incantare, from in- + cantare to sing -- more at CHANT
> 1 : to influence by or as if by charms and incantation
> 
> At any rate "enchant," "enchantment," "incantation," etc., all point
> to the relationship between chanting and spells (as indicated in the
> definition you cited: "an incantation may be *chanted* or spoken," and
> the kind of chanting I had in mind is the very songlike Gregorian
> chant (note "to sing a chant," in definition 1 of "chant"). For
> examples of Gregorian chant, click here:
> 
> http://www.christdesert.org/noframes/chant/chant.html
> 
> If you've ever attended a Mass conducted in Latin, or even a
> high-Church Anglican communion service with the priest and
> congregation alternating chanted responses, you'll know what I mean by
> a songlike chant. And the combination of "songlike" with "muttered" to
> me indicates a chanted incantation. Note "song*like*. What else
> besides a chant ("making melodic sounds with the voice") is songlike
> but not quite an actual song? (Like Gregorian chant, Snape's spell is
> chanted a cappella, but, of course, it's a solo, not a choral
> performance).
> 
> Also note "cantata" and "canto" and other "song" words with the root
> "canto, cantare," "to sing or chant," the same root that appears in
> "incantation." If you prefer to believe that Snape actually *sang*
> rather than chanted the incantation, that's fine, but the word the
> narrator uses is "muttered." In any case, it's a fine distinction, and
> Gregorian chant, which I had in mind when I typed the question, is
> classified as a form of music. At any rate, I agree that he didn't
> simply recite it. IMO, it resembled a song without actually being one.
> (You don't need to have a two-octave range to chant it.)
> 
> I don't think anyone here is thinking of the sort of rhythmic chant we
> hear at an American football game: "Go! Go! Go!" or in the GoF film:
> "Fight! Fight! Fight!" 


wynnleaf
Actually, my impression was that some posters were thinking of "chant"
as something akin to the sound of reading metered verse.  

Carol
Again, when I used "chantlike" in my chapter
> discussion, I meant resembling Gregorian chant in being "songlike" but
> not quite a song. (If Snape has any kind of musical ability at all, I
> expect that it was quite beautiful, though the narrator, reflecting
> Harry's pov, didn't say so.)

wynnleaf
Gregorian and other early chants are considered a form of music called
plainsong (one of my majors in college was music so we did study
this).  Plainsong is a single line of unaccompanied musical notation
to be sung, although it usually doesn't have a very wide range of
actual notes.  It is not metered and to our modern ears it appears to
have no rhythm.  

I had thought that some posters were confused about what was meant by
"chant."  If Snape's incantation was in fact like a chant, it was not
anything like reciting metered poetry (it seemed like some posters may
have thought of it like that).  Instead, it would have been unmetered,
without a discernable rhythm.  But it *would* be a song, with notes,
just without much range on the notes.  "Muttered" wouldn't change the
musical nature of it; it would just make it more quiet.  

The narration calling it "songlike" instead of more directly saying it
was a song would make sense, because from Harry's point of view he
wouldn't be able to recognize plainsong as any sort of music he was
familiar with.


Carol
> I was also thinking of ancient magic from the time of the medieval
> monks when I suggested the resemblance of Snape's spell to Gregorian
> chant. I'm not sure whether he researched the counterspell or invented
> it, but it seems to me to be influenced by medieval healing magic in
> its complexity and in being chanted rather than spoken--very different
> from the counterspell to Levicorpus, which is simply Liberacorpus,
> another one-word nonverbal spell.


wynnleaf
It is interesting that this is the first use (I think) we're shown of
music in a spell.  Doesn't Dumbledore use a similar spell later to
heal the cuts in the cave?  Sorry, no book handy to check.


Carol
> On a sidenote, I'm also quite certain that Snape is the only one who
> knows this spell. I doubt that Lupin, had he been there, or Madam
> Pomfrey, or even Dumbledore could have saved Draco. I keep thinking,
> "Severus! I need Severus!" Just as he has a deep interest in and
> knowledge of the Dark Arts, he also has a deep interest in and
> knowledge of their counterparts. And this particular counterspell is
> so complex that he may have developed (or discovered) it as an adult
> rather than a boy at Hogwarts. It's interesting that no countercurse
> is written in the margins of the book, not even scratched-out attempts
> such as "Sectum Adverto" ("heal the cut"). To me it seems important
> that the person who invented the spell also be the one who created or
> discovered the countercurse--part of his remorse, as Jen says.
> 
> Carol, quite convinced that Snape was chanting the "songlike"
> incantation (as opposed to merely speaking a one-or two-word phrase or
> actually singing, say, a hymn or other musical composition)
>

wynnleaf
I certainly agree that Snape sang the incantation -- possibly in a
plainsong manner, as early chants were.  

wynnleaf -- who hopes that all the posters realized what "chant"
implied, rather than thinking it to be something like reciting metered
verses.