'...He was taking too much for granted'

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 161459

zgirnius wrote:
> > I think they were discussing the Draco problem. Dumbledore was
telling him to keep watching his moves and discourage him from any
further attempts like the necklace. Snape had already failed to get
through to Draco in the conversation we saw during Slughorn's
Christmas party. Just before the conversation, he had probably noticed
Draco was up to something new (if Harry noticed Draco disappearing for
hours, surely Snape would). He may have been telling Dumbledore he was
not sure he could stay in top of the problem. 
> 
Jen responded: 
The part I don't get with the Draco explanation is why Snape 
> felt he couldn't watch over him anymore and keep him out of 
> trouble.  He's not exactly a whiner type and with the Unbreakable he 
> *has* to do this and not because Dumbledore is telling him to!

Carol comments:
I agree with Jen that Snape isn't a whiner, but I also agree with
zgirnius that Snape must have seen following Draco as futile at this
point. I think he probably knew (and had reported to Dumbledore) that
he was using the RoR; he had found out what he could (virtually
nothing) from Crabbe and Goyle by putting them in detention; Draco was
not cooperating and would only become more hostile if he realized that
Snape was following him. It's even possible that Snape was afraid of
finding out exactly what Draco was doing, or failing to do, because
the vow might compel him to do it for Draco ("if it seems Draco will
fail"). After all, the vow doesn't specify that Snape must kill
Dumbledore; it states that he must watch over and protect Draco "carry
out the deed that the Dark Lord has instructed Draco to perform" if it
appears that Draco will fail to do it.

Now, I don't think that Snape would hesitate to protect Draco with or
without a vow, but he must feel frustrated at this point, as in what
more do you want me to do? And although I don't think Hagrid is quite
correct, Snape certainly *is* overworked--teaching duties (with
remedial lessons for Crabbe and Goyle, apparently); HoH duties now
magnified because of Draco; double agent duties, whatever that entails
during the school year; and the usual after-hours hall prowling and
reporting to Dumbledore. So, though I agree that he wouldn't complain
about being overworked, he apparently sees some of what he's doing as
futile" "You take too much for granted, Dumbledore!" Maybe it's
watching Harry added into the mix that he doesn't want to do any more,
but I don't think so. I don't see how that would fit in with "you take
too much for granted," unless Snape doesn't believe that Harry is the
Chosen One, which IMO doesn't fit with any of his actions so far. And
yet he knows that he must watch over Draco because of the UV, so it
must be the "investigations into his House" that he sees as futile. He
knows who's behind both the necklace and poisoned mead; he's already
told Draco to stop using such amateurish tactics; he's not going to
get Draco to sit down with him again. I'm guessing that he's saying
that it's pointless to follow Draco and Dumbledore is reminding him of
his "promise" (UV) to "watch over him"--to the best of his ability,
which does not include every moment of the night and day. (Just how
the later weekly detentions with Harry fit in here, I'm not sure.
Possibly, he's protecting the boys from each other.)

Jen:
  Then 
> I start wondering if Hagrid heard and reported everything exactly as 
> is or if he made some assumptions to fill in the gaps?  Or missed a 
> few key words?  

Carol responds:
Oh, absolutely. Instead of Harry as eavesdropper missing key words (as
in the Quirrell/Snape conversation in the forest in SS/PS or the
listening at the door in HBP), we have an incomplete secondhand report
by a less than reliable source of information who is guessing about
Snape's meaning and motives. So I'd say there's a lot more to this
conversation than Snape being overworked, true though that is, and the
key question, IMO, is one that Hagrid doesn't even consider: what,
exactly, is Dumbledore taking for granted? Is it that they can somehow
stop Draco without activating the vow? If so, I'd say that Snape is
right. Just about anything they do is going to endanger either Draco
(and therefore Snape) or Dumbledore or both. Maybe Dumbledore thinks
that they can put off the confrontation indefinitely and Snape knows
that isn't true?

Jen:
That makes me start wondering about your second 
> option here:
> 
> zgirnius:
> > So I think Dumbledore was saying Snape should say close to
Voldemort, to spy on him, or possibly be near to help Harry in the
final confrontation [after leaving Hogwarts because of the DADA curse].
> 
> Jen: This one fits Snape except for one minor thing--more on that.  
> Snape wouldn't mind watching over Draco as much as Harry.  If he 
> doesn't believe in the prophecy like Dumbledore does (or doesn't 
> think Harry is the Chosen One since he doesn't know the full 
> prophecy) then Snape wouldn't think watching over Harry is crucial, 
> he wouldn't see the harm in backing out of the deal with 
> Dumbledore.  If there *is* a deal.  The one part that doesn't fit 
> here is Dumbledore bringing up 'making investigations in your own 
> house'--if Dumbledore knows about the UV then wouldn't he know Snape 
> would do everything he could to stop Draco?  Maybe he doesn't know 
> about the UV, or this is the part where Hagrid didn't hear the whole 
> argument.  He did mention this section in vague terms 'summat abou' 
> Snape makin' investigations in his house, in Slytherin.'

Carol responds:
Snape has been watching over Harry throughout the books, so I don't
think that's the problem. It's something peculiar to HBP, something
related to Draco's assignment and the UV, as indicated by
"investigations into his house." I don't think he wants to stop
teaching the cursed DADA course, which is crucial to the fight against
LV, especially since he has only one year to do it. And I think he's
known all along, at least since his Dark Mark started coming back and
he began making preparations, on DD's orders, to return to LV ("If you
are ready; if you are prepared") that he would one day have to return
to the DEs in seeming earnest. Certainly, the moment he accepted the
DADA position, he knew that, as did Dumbledore. 

As for the UV, Dumbledore tells Harry that he knows more about what's
going on than Harry does, and I think that includes the UV. If Snape
were keeping something that important from him, he would know it,
superb Occlumens or no. I think that confessing that he's taken the UV
actually increases DD's trust in Snape, not the reverse. Nor do I
think that DD's words to Draco, "Of course that is what he would tell
you, Draco, but--" indicate that DD didn't know about the UV. Because
of course it *is* what Snape would tell Draco. For one thing, it's
true. He did take a UV to protect Draco (and if necessary, do the
deed, but he doesn't tell Draco that part), so that's what he would
give as his reason for watching Draco--a perfectly true, if
incomplete, reason in keeping with his pose as a double agent loyal to
Voldemort. And of course he *wouldn't* tell Draco that he was also
watching over him for Dumbledore, to whom he was genuinely loyal. So
the sentence can be finished with something along the lines of, "Of
course that's what he would tell you, Draco, but he was working for me
as well as for your mother."

As for not wanting to help Harry in the final confrontation, I don't
see how that's consistent with DDM!Snape, who is going back to
Voldemort for exactly that reason, as far as we can guess, and giving
Harry last-minute advice, saving him from a Crucio, and not taking the
opportunity to either kill or kidnap him.

So unless what Snape doesn't want to do is carry out his vow by
killing Dumbledore if he's pushed to it by unavoidable circumstances,
the only explanation that makes sense to me is that he doesn't want to
keep following (and thereby antagonizing) Draco, knowing that it's
wholly pointless. Fortunately for both of them, he obeys Dumbledore
and is on hand to save Draco from Sectumsempra. In any case, I think
that what DD takes for granted is that they can keep delaying the
confrontation and consequently prevent the activation of the vow (and
the DADA curse). In the end, they're both right. Following Draco
enables Snape to save him from Harry, but nothing, not even Snape's
death from breaking the vow (and taking Harry and Draco with him), can
save Dumbledore.
 
> Jen R., thinking JKR wanted to keep the argument purposely vague for 
> Book 7.

Carol, agreeing completely on that part of your argument