JKR and the boys (and girls)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 161603

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > If Ginny and Hermione were close friends at this time the reader 
> > should be aware of it, even if Harry doesn't care. If JKR failed 
> > to do so than she's done a bad job writing Ginny's and           
> > Hermione's relationship.

> Pippin:
> Why, though? JKR is a novelist, not a newscaster. She doesn't have
> to give us breaking news as it happens, details at eleven. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
So it's good I'm not asking her for that. <g>  We don't know 
Hermione's visiting Hagrid in PoA at the very moment she visits 
him.  But we do find out about it because it's important to 
establish what Hermione (a main character) is doing while being 
shunned by Ron and Harry (two other main characters).

The idea that Hermione is *also* hanging out with Ginny, 
establishing a close friendship, and that JKR does not, can not, and 
should not, share that with us is...  well, it's confusing.  How can 
you argue that Hermione and Ginny were hanging out together when 
canon doesn't show it happening?

As you say, JKR is a novelist, not a newscaster.  She doesn't have 
to evenly and unemotionally feed us the facts.  She's supposed to 
paint a picture that gives us a feel for the main characters and 
their relationships.  If a relationship between two major characters 
is never spoken of in the books, odds are the relationship never 
happened.

If it was *supposed* to have happened and JKR just didn't get around 
to covering it, then the story got away from her and she's playing 
catch up.  Which is bad writing.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> For those of us who saw Ginny marked out as Harry's girl from the 
> moment he saw her on the platform, learning before Harry did  that 
> she was close to Hermione or that she was interested in Quidditch 
> wouldn't have been a clue, it would have been a dead giveaway, and 
> it would have made Harry look dumb. He's supposed to be oblivious, 
> not stupid.

Betsy Hp:
The H/G ship was supposed to be a mystery?  First I've heard of 
that.  I thought the ship played as pretty obvious from the moment 
Ginny piped up on the train platform. 

If JKR sacrificed character development for mystery than she made a 
story telling error, IMO.  (Though I'm confused as to how Hermione's 
relationship with Ginny figures at all into Harry's relationship 
with Ginny.)

> >>Pippin:
> As it is, we do get  notice that a relationship had developed. That
> giggly love potion business -- who else does Hermione ever let 
> herself get giggly with? And giving Ginny advice on how to win
> Harry!! Hermione's awfully protective of him, you know, she       
> wouldn't hand that out to just anyone.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
It still doesn't work for me.  It's too little, too late, and far 
too unimportant for the Hermione I know.  And that's the same 
Hermoine who loves giving advice to anyone who might ask for it.  
And who has never displayed any odd protectiveness over who Harry 
might or might not date.  (I think we're back to the "different 
books" thing.)

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> We didn't see the closeness developing because it would have killed
> the  H/G suspense, and because the focus of the stories isn't on   
> normal social development.

Betsy Hp:
So Hermione is unable to have any female friendships on page because 
that would pull the focus off the story?  But she *is* allowed to 
hang around Hagrid a lot.  I really don't get this.
 
> >>Pippin:
> It seems to me the bad writing charge is an excuse used by readers
> to explain why something they wanted to read about isn't in the    
> books.

Betsy Hp:
But, that's what *you're* doing.  You're asking me to believe in a 
friendship that isn't supported by the books. I'm only pointing out 
that, as per canon, Hermione and Ginny spend far too little time 
together to be called best friends.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > But that wasn't over the stress of *dating*.  That was the      
> > stress of *Ron*.  Hermione effortlessly landed the school's most 
> > eligible bachelor soon into the asking process.  

> >>Pippin:
> Yeah, too bad it wasn't the date *she* wanted. Or have you         
> forgotten the infamous, "Next time there's a ball, ask me before   
> someone else does and not as a last resort!"  
> If she really had the dating stuff down, not that I'd expect her to
> at going on sixteen, she'd have:
> a) Found a way to let Ron know she was a girl
> b)Let him know she'd be up for an invite to the ball
> c)Made him think it was all his idea.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
So rather than a super-savvy teenager, Hermione should have aimed 
for godhood? (And of course, there's no *way* Hermione could have 
asked Ron out.  Next thing you'll be expecting Hermione to work 
after marriage. <eg>) 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > We get a similar deal in HBP with Slughorn's Christmas party.  
> > Hermione effortlessly lands a date that meets her political 
> > requirements.  

> Pippin:
> Except that she doesn't twig that his intentions are different
> than hers. That's part of the dating thing too.

Betsy Hp:
Exactly.  Hermione's got the mechanics down (land cool date, look 
hot) but doesn't get the emotional aspects.

> >>Pippin:
> And I shouldn't think it would be hard to get a date for           
> Slughorn's parties. Draco can't be the only Slugclub wannabe.

Betsy Hp:
Probably not.  But Hermione goes with a fellow club member (wouldn't 
do to sully herself with a non-elite).

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > So yeah, I do think Hermione has the social aspects of dating
> > pretty much sown up. And from the moment she's expected to      
> > figure it out no less. It's the falling in love thing that she's 
> > struggling through. (Which actually fits in with her character   
> > quite well.)

> >>Phoenixgod:
> She does seem to have the dating scene sown up but I actually do  
> find that out of character. This is the girl who in her first year 
> had almost no friends and barely knew how to act around the ones   
> who were her friends. she got better over the years, but I have   
> known a lot of students in my years as a teacher just like         
> Hermione (male and female both) and I can tell you they are no    
> good at dating except inside their head. Get them in a real       
> situation and without fail they fall apart. For her to be somehow 
> antisocial and an uberdater cool chick strikes me as inconsistent 
> writing and a cheap way of showing up the guys and making them    
> look pathetic.

Betsy Hp:
I think Hermione changes from the geeky outsider to intense Class 
President (I'm thinking Reese Witherspoon in "Election" here) from 
PS/SS to... I'd say PoA.

It *is* a stretch, IMO, to take a girl with absolutely no interest 
in hair, clothes, and makeup and have her show up looking as sleek 
and sophisticated as, well, a 35 year old (thanks, Magpie!).  
Especially since there's no fairy godmother figure showing her the 
ropes. But an argument could be made that what with magic and 
Hermione's research skills she figured out the tricks of the trade 
in time for her big night.  And it makes sense that it's the human 
factor Hermione falls down on.

I agree with Magpie that it takes some depth out of Hermione's 
character.  I much preferred the spastic brain of PS/SS to the scary 
future dictator of the world of HBP.  I'm just hoping that in book 7 
the scary dictator gets deflated and figures out it's okay to be a 
spastic brain.

> >>Phoenixgod:
> > I don't know about Miles but it is what I am missing in the     
> > story. It is one thing to say that that stuff happens offscreen 
> > but Harry demonstrates again and again that is isn't happening   
> > at all. He is too ignorant of others in the school for Harry to 
> > be goofing around with them offscreen.
> > <snip>

> >>Magpie:
> It's funny because it would be just as easy for the narrator to   
> just tell us who people are with the assumption Harry would know. 
> Instead we're more often told that yes, Harry really has no idea.

Betsy Hp:
And JKR does do the "Harry's known this for a while folks" route 
with other things.  Like that shortcut to Gryffindor tower.  I don't 
think we ever shared the moment that he and Ron discovered the 
shortcut, but as readers we can agree that he's known about it for a 
while now.  It goes towards his comfort and knowledge of Hogwarts.

Why doesn't she do something similar when say McLaggen shares his 
eating too much pixie dust (or whatever his quidditch excuse is) 
story?  Have Harry remember that occasion, for example.  I wonder if 
JKR *does* want Harry to appear isolated and socially backward?

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I think we're reading the same books... I'm just reading them in
> > the back of soon to be closed bar, sucking down cheap cigarettes
> > and cheaper liquor, fighting off a headache and a broken heart.

> >>Phoenixgod:
> I think I've seen you there...Except I don't have the whole broken
> hearted thing going :)

Betsy Hp:
Hee! I'm still at a point that I don't like not liking the main 
characters anymore.  And I'm still hopeful that this a darkness JKR 
wrote on purpose.  That she'll come sailing into the bar with book 7 
and prove that our love is still true.  That the good guys are still 
admirable and likable.  That the Potter books will stand the test of 
time.  (It's getting late, but I'm not leaving.  They'll have to 
throw my carcass out. <g>)

Betsy Hp (pulled from different posts so the order is questionable)