Dark Magic and Snape / Dark Creatures

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 161633

Carol:
> (Granted, Aunt Marge deserves it, but I'm not talking about what the
victim deserves. I'm talking about Obliviate and what it can
accomplish, as well as the intention of the Obliviators, who clearly
are not Dark wizards.)
> 
> a_svirn:
> How about the Aurors who used the unforgivables with the permission
> of Crouch Sr?
>
Carol again:
That's a real problem for me in the books because, IMO, those curses
are clearly Dark. Crouch Sr. fell into the temptation of using the
enemy's weapons to fight the enemy and in so doing, become little
better than they were. In the end, those weapons come back to punish
him, and he's first Imperio'd and than AK'd by his own son, with an
interim of near-insanity between them. There has to be some better way
to fight the Enemy than to use curses designed to murder, torture, or
dominate (which, according to Dumbledore, is what the Death Eaters
mostly do). We know that Mad-Eye Moody only killed when he had to. We
don't know that he used the AK when he did it, and I doubt that he
ever resorted to Imperio or Crucio. It's hard to say what Rufus
Scrimgeour would do, but I think he would also be corrupted by those
curses if he used them and suffer the consequences. The Crouches, IMO,
are intended to illustrate what happens to seemingly decent or
well-intentioned people (a boy who got twelve OWLs and his ministry
official father) when they let ambition or revenge or any other motive
tempt them to use the Unforgiveables and yield to that temptation. To
me, it's like the One Ring in LOTR. You use those evil weapons at your
peril.

a_svirn:
> > > We've been told how Quirrel came to be corrupted. He "opened his
> > soul to Lord Voldemort". Which means that he *meant* to be
corrupted as much as Voldemort did. <snip>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Exactly. He *chose* to fall into evil, to be seduced by the Dark
> Arts he was supposed to be fighting.
> 
> a_svirn:
> If he had a choice in the matter it wasn't really a seduction. I
> always thought phrases like "he chose to be seduced" are supposed to
> be ironic.

Carol:
See your own post elsewhere in this thread, complete with quotes. He
was a willing victim who let Voldemort into his heart and mind.

As you said yourself in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/161606:

> Dumbledore did say:

 > "Quirrell, full of hatred, greed, and ambition, sharing his soul
with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason."

> And before that Voldemort himself:

> "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor ...
I have form only when I can share another's body... but there have
always been those *willing* [emphasis mine – a_svirn] to let me into
their hearts and minds...."

> So here we have it: a man full of hatred, freed and ambition, eager
to share his soul with Voldemort. Not a pretty picture.

Carol again:

What can I say? A willing victim who allowed himself to be seduced and
then possessed. I don't know why you're arguing with me when I agree
with you on this point.

Carol earlier:
> Think of Saruman in LOTR, who "studied too deeply the arts of the
enemy." He was tempted to *practice* the  very arts that he studied,
in his case creating evil creatures and trying to create a Ring of Power.
> 
> a_svirn:
> Quirrel was tempted by *power*. Arts of any kind were just means to
> achieve it. Or, rather, were meant to be. What he actually achieved
> was abject slavery.

Carol again:
Saruman was also tempted by power. The "arts of the enemy" were his
means to that end, just as they were Sauron's means in the first
place. So ambition, greed, the lust for immortality, whatever the
motive is, the person seduced by the Dark Arts is seduced because they
seem to be the best or easiest way of achieving that end. Quirrell's
failure to achieve his goal has nothing to do with it. Voldemort, even
in Vapor form, was wilier and more powerful than he was. That does not
make the Dark Arts any less Dark, or any less tempting to those who
are willing to corrupt themselves through their use to achieve some end. 

Which takes us to Snape, who seems to have studied them out of
intellectual curiosity, went so far as to invent Sectumsempra and to
become a Death Eater, but then apparently felt remorse, (re)joined the
other side, and either invented or discovered a countercurse to
Sectumsempra. His knowledge of the Dark Arts makes him the best DADA
teacher (IMO) that we've seen in the HP books. Assuming DDM!Snape, how
did he manage not to be seduced by the Dark Arts he studied so deeply?
IMO, it's because he didn't want power or immortality, just
recognition for his talents. Maybe he only spied and made potions and
invented a few spells but didn't cast any Unforgiveables before
Godric's Hollow, or for that matter, before the tower incident.
Otherwise, it seems to me that he would have fallen as Quirrell did,
seduced by the desire to learn his subject more thoroughly (which I
suppose could count as a form of ambition but seems to me more like
the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, or even more like Mary
Shelley's Frankenstein, playing God with forbidden knowledge). But JKR
has said that Snape wouldn't wear a turban, meaning, IMO, that he
would not have allowed Voldemort inside his head. How does Snape have
the strength to resist the lure of the Dark Arts, to fight them and
not practice them, despite his knowledge? (Of course, this question is
only for people who believe in DDM!Snape. The answer for anyone else
would be "he doesn't.")
 
> a_svirn:
<snip> A good deal of the twins merchandise is "used exclusively to
> harm others". So how come it's not dark? Just because they come from
> a good family and sell their goods at Diagon Alley instead of
> Knockturn Alley? That's strikes me as unfair to say the least. <snip>

Carol:
I'm no fan of the Twins and I certainly don't approve of what they did
to a helpless Muggle, bully or no, with the Ton-Tongue Toffee. Nor do
I think it's right for them to make money by selling merchandise that
will be used to play so-called practical jokes on gullible victims. I
suppose the only reason their merchandise isn't considered Dark (or at
least no Darker than a Leg-Locker Curse) is that it does no permanent
harm (at least when used on fellow wizards) and doesn't usually
require the intervention of an adult wizard to "sort it out." It's no
worse than the Zonko's products, which students buy willingly, though
the Zonko's products are also used to play pranks on each other. I
suppose the toughness of wizard kids, who play Quidditch with
equipment capable of killing a Muggle, make poisons (and antidotes) in
fourth-year Potions, and study potentially lethal beasts in COMC is
some excuse. Making those products apparently doesn't corrupt the
Twins' soul, nor are Canary Creams and the like intended to kill as
was the cursed opal necklace and the still Darker ring Horcrux.

I don't approve of the Twins' products, nor of jinxing and hexing
fellow students in the hallways. but those bits of magic appear to be
mildly dark rather than Dark, to use Steve's distinction. They are
easily reversed and provide no lasting damage and are intended to
amuse or annoy or inconvenience rather than to kill, torture,
mutilate, or dominate.
> 
> > Carol:
> > Is a spell or object sinister? Is it intended solely to harm or to
promote some unnatural aim such as immortality?
> 
> a_svirn:
> Yes, that would be my vote. But this leaves out things like the
unforgivables.
>
Carol:
No, it doesn't. They fit under "sinister" and "intended solely to
harm." An AK can't be used for any other purpose but to kill and
there's no countercurse. A Crucio can't be used for any other purpose
than to torture. An Imperius Curse, even if it's only used to make
students hop around the room on one leg, violates the will and the
mind and subjects one person to the will of another, essentially
making one person the other's slave for as long as the spell lasts.
And, IMO, those curses corrupt the user, which is why I keep bringing
up the Crouches as evidence that the curses are as harmful to the
caster as to the victim.

Carol, still worried about the affects of the AK on Snape and not
wanting Harry to use one for the same reason