CHAP DISC, HBP 25, The Seer Overheard

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 161733

<snip Alla's detailed summary, which makes the quotes nice and accessible>
> 
> 1.	"'How can I have hung round with you for five years and not 
> think girls are clever?' said Harry, stung by this." What does this 
> remark tell you about Harry?

Carol responds:
I agree with Ceridwen that the little incident tells us more about
Hermione than Harry. She should know better than to imply that Harry
doesn't think girls (or at least this particular girl) are clever. He
said so as early as SS/PS. (BTW, I agree with Hermione that Harry
shouldn't be taking credit for the HBP's ideas, but her motive comes
across as jealousy, as if she thinks that the HBP has taken her place
as Harry's intellectual advisor.)
 
> 2.	The narrator tells us that the reason why Harry disliked 
> Snape's detentions was because they were taking away from his time 
> with Ginny. Would have Harry liked them otherwise? 

Carol:
Well, obviously not. Snape was punishing Harry, among other motives,
and he didn't want them to be pleasant, any more than sorting rotten
Flobberworms from good ones was pleasant. He also needed a task that
would take a good long time (till the end of the year at least), be
boring, and provide an occasional sting as Harry encountered
detentions involving his father and godfather. Any other motives Snape
had, such as keeping Harry away from Draco, would be of no concern to
Harry, who would have felt put upon and resentful for missing
Quidditch or just being kept in on a Saturday morning if he didn't
have time away from Ginny to resent. And he might have felt much the
same way even if the detentions had been administered by McGonagall.
Harry has yet to learn anything from a detention, IMO--unless you
count learning about the Forbidden Forest and its denizens as a lesson
McGonagall didn't intend. But when have detentions ever deterred Harry
from breaking rules or made him feel sorrier or guiltier about what
he's done? It seems to me that he's forgotten why he's there and made
it all Snape's fault again in his own mind.
> 
> 
> 3.	Why does Dumbledore want fewer visits from professor 
> Trelawney?

Carol:
Primarily because she won't take no for an answer. He's hired "the
nag" to take half her classes and he can't go back on that
arrangement, nor can he fire Trelawney or tell her what danger she's
in. I'm sure he wishes that she'd just go away. And it's
possible--this idea just struck me"--that she's pulled out the
Lightning-Struck-Tower card and flourished it at Dumbledore, too. Does
he already know that disaster is coming (UV, DADA curse, Draco's
project), and does the card actually persuade him to speed things up?
> 
> 4.	The card that Trelawney pulls and reads to Harry correctly 
> predicts what will happen soon. Did that cause you to change your 
> opinion of Trelawney's prediction powers, card reading and other 
> Seer abilities for the better? If not, why not?

Carol:
Actually, I've felt all along that she's not quite as much of a fraud
as McGonagall and Hermione think. She may have made only two real
Prophecies in the sense of going into a trance, but she saw what
looked like a Grim (actually a dog Animagus) in the tea leaves, and
she can read the cards. I think she mainly needs more confidence, more
respect, less flim-flam, and a lot less cooking sherry. We'll see her
make a third real prediction in Book 7 or I'll--well, no I won't. But
I expect to see a bit more of her. She's not descended from Cassandra
Trelawney for nothing. (The mythical Cassandra's predictions weren't
believed but came true anyway. A hint here?)
> 
> 5.	We have discussed many times Trelawney's version of the 
> prophecy, Dumbledore's version of the prophecy, whether they are 
> compatible or not, etc., so I am not going there, but there is a 
> small detail which I am not sure I remember an answer to 
> (speculative answer of course). How did Trelawney know that Snape 
> was looking for a job at the time? <snip>

Carol:
I don't think she *knew* any such thing. She knew that he had recently
left Hogwarts, a little more than two years before, and she knew that
he got a job at Hogwarts almost two years later). She needs a reason
for him to be listening at keyholes and that's the one that occurs to
her. But we've seen in many cases (e.g., Hagrid, Ron, Hermione, Sirius
Black, Harry himself) that the explanations characters provide in good
faith are often incomplete or just plain wrong.

As I've said before, Trelawney did not start teaching at the beginning
of the school year. I think the interview took place on Halloween, but
it could have been any time between late fall and early spring. It was
not, however, the usual time for job interviews, and it's unlikely
that young Snape would have been listening in for that reason. She
simply supplied it as an explanation that made sense to her. (She did
not, of course, know that he was a DE at the time. Which, BTW, raises
the question of whether LV was paying him for his services, such as
potion making--and spying, if he was assigned to do so.)
> 
> 
> 6.	"Snape and Peter Pettigrew together had sent Voldemort 
> hunting after Lily and James and their son ..." Do you agree or 
> disagree with this quote? Why? 

Carol:
You know the answer before I give it. Of course not. This is Harry
jumping to conclusions, thinking the worst of Snape, assuming that
Snape knew PP was the Secret Keeper and plotted with him to kill his
parents. We know from PoA that Snape had no such knowledge and from DD
that he had no such intention. Harry, like Trelwaney, is interpreting
incidents in ways that make sense to him, but we readers have enough
information to know that he's wrong. Snape did not send Voldemort
after the Potters. Harry had not been born yet (I think he was barely
conceived) and as DD points out, Snape had no way of knowing how
Voldemort would interpret the Prophecy or who it referred to. So,
obviously. our narrator, reflecting Harry's biases and preconceptions,
is not reliable here.
> 
> 7.	"Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though 
> he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he 
> said, 'I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.'" What was 
> Dumbledore trying to make up his mind about?

Carol:
Whether to tell Harry why he trusts Snape. It may or may not have to
do with Lily, but IMO DD was protecting Snape, who has to appear to be
a loyal DE at this point. We still don't know why he trusts Snape, but
I believe it to be an excellent reason, and I'm sure we'll be whown
that Dumbledore was not "a foolish old man," as Harry thinks and Draco
actually says. (Or Draco says "stupid," but it's the same wrong-headed
idea.) Dumbledore has told Harry "everything" concerning himself, his
family, Riddle/Voldemort, and Horcruxes, but he can't tell him
everything about Snape, not even the "thrilling tale" of the ring
Horcrux and Snape's role in saving him.
> 
> 8.	"'He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven't you noticed, 
> Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?'" We also 
> know so far that people whom Harry loves tend to end up dead and 
> some of the names on the list of people whom Snape hates and Harry 
> loves tend to be the same. If you were to predict the next person to 
> die by that criteria, whom would you pick?

Carol:
Hm. This is a loaded question, assuming ESE! or OFH!Snape, and I think
Harry is wrong--not about Snape hating James but about his role in the
Potters' death, which I'm quite sure he attempted to prevent by going
to Dumbledore and perhaps by trying to warn James directly and being
spurned. But, to turn the question in a DDM! direction, the person
Snape hates most, IMO, is Voldemort, and we will certainly see
Voldemort dead or destroyed by the end of the book, probably with
Snape's help. If, say, Lupin (whom Snape dislikes but doesn't
virulently hate, IMO) dies, it won't be because of Snape. Just my
view, but I don't really think this is a fair question, and I can't
think of anyone else except Harry whom Snape really hates (dislikes is
another matter). Certainly not Neville or Hermione, and he doesn't
want Harry to die because Harry, much as Snape hates the idea, is the
Chosen One, whose life he has saved or attempted to save on at least
three occasions.)

> 
> 9.	<snip quote> 
> Harry is trying to restrain himself from knocking things over. Is it 
> because he has undergone some character development and is trying to 
> control his temper, or is he simply afraid that Dumbledore will not 
> let him come? Any other ideas?

Carol:
Well, at least he's not smashing DD's possessions to relieve his
feelings, so he's showing self-control (as he also does with his
jealous urges to hit Dean elsewhere in the book). So I think he's
learned his lesson, at least with regard to Dumbledore (if not with
snape later in the book), but I agree that wanting to go to the cave
with DD is a powerful motivation. He cares what DD thinks of him and
he also very much wants to go on the Horcrux hunt even if he doesn't
trust DD's judgment regarding Snape.
> 
> 10.	"'You're leaving the school tonight and I'll bet you haven't 
> even considered that Snape and Malfoy might decide to -' To what?' 
> asked Dumbledore, his eyebrows raised. 'What is it that you suspect 
> them of doing, precisely?'"  Why is Dumbledore asking Harry this 
> question?

Carol:
Good question. I think that DD know full well that Draco is trying to
kill him and knows that he's up to something in the RoR, but I wonder
why he would ask Harry. Maybe he wants to use Legilimency to find out
how much Harry knows, which turns out to be less than DD knows. Unlike
DD, he doesn't know that the "job" is killing DD and he (wrongly, IMO)
thinks that Snape is trying to help Draco do what LV wants. Neither of
them knows specifically about the Vanishing Cabinet, but clearly DD is
anticipating some sort of break-in or he wouldn't have the Order
members stationed there. I suppose he's asking what Harry knows in
case Harry is aware that Draco intends to kill DD, in which case DD is
going to have to offer some sort of explanation for leaving that
evening. Since Harry doesn't know what Draco is up to, he's spared the
explanation. And, of course, he doesn't want to say too much about
Snape. DD is erring on the side of caution, but perhaps he knows by
now that there's no way to save himself, or he's more concerned about
saving Draco and snape than saving himself. He can't anticipate the
exact circumstances on the tower, but he certainly anticipates danger
to himself based on the orders he gives to Harry. (There's so much JKR
is withholding from us. It's agony!)
> 
> 11.	 `Thanks,' said Ron. 'Er - why do I need socks?'  Here we 
> meet socks again. In fact, we have attempted to figure out possible 
> socks symbolism in the books for quite some time now. So, is there 
> any possible symbolic reason why Harry gives Felix felicis to Ron 
> wrapped in sock?

Carol:
I think she's just remembering that Harry uses socks to cushion
breakable objects and Sneakoscopes. They're useful for that purpose
and it provides a touch of humor for Harry to hand Ron socks at this
crucial moent. Yes, I know that everyone from Dobby to DD to
Fake!Moody refers to socks, and we even have Harry receiving a pair of
Uncle Vernon's old socks as a Christmas present, but I don't see any
plot significance. Maybe JKR is remembering getting socks for
Christmas when she wanted toys, or a later Christmas when she would
very much have appreciated a pair of warm socks but didn't receive
them. It has to be a personal thing, not important to the plot as far
as I can see.

What I want to know (and I know it's been discussed before, but I
haven't heard an answer I can ablsolutely accept) is why DD sent Harry
to get his Invisibility Cloak after telling him to keep it with him at
all times.

Carol, thanking Alla for the interesting discussion and really hoping
that JKR answers our questions about Snape, DD, and even Trelawney in
Book 7