Freedom for House-Elves

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 161853

--- "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Betsy Hp wrote:
> > <snip>JKR is taking an odd tactic of having only 
> > Dobby actually express a certain level of unhappiness
> > with the state of house-elves.  ...  No other 
> > house-elf has jumped on Dobby's bandwagon. In  fact,
> >  there's an impression that Dobby would be thrilled 
> > to be owned by Harry.  And Harry doesn't seem all 
> > that bothered to be Kreacher's owner, for that 
> > matter.
> 
> > ...  Honestly, I'm not sure  where JKR is going to
> > take the house-elf thing.  With one book left to go
> > I'm not sure she can squeeze in a freedom for 
> > house-elves sub-plot. <snip>
> 

bboyminn:

First a couple of brief comment to Betsy. I think Harry 
IS very much bothered by owning Kreacher. First, by the
idea of owning a 'slave' at all, then by the idea of
specifically owning a mad traitorous trecherous Elf like
Kreacher. But what can he do??? I think he did the only
thing he reasonable could which was put Kreacher at 
Hogwarts where he is essentially warehoused and out of
the way.

As to where JKR is going with the House-Elf sub-plot I
have many ideas, each as farfetched and unlikely as
the next.

There is my theory, as mentioned twice in as many days,
that Elvin magic is limited by their master's permission.
Once Harry discovers this and gives free unfettered rein
to all Elfin magic at Hogwarts, the Elves could play a
huge part in my equally speculative 'Battle of Hogwarts'.
Though to some extent, we have already had an attack on
Hogwarts, are we likely to have another one? 

As I said, each speculation as unlikely as the next.


> Carol responds:
> ... I agree with Magpie that House-Elf slavery, which
> ... is voluntary servitude ..., doesn't really parallel
> human slavery, pre-Civil War American or otherwise.
> 

bboyminn:

The forbidden 'DITTO'. House-elf servitude is very 
complex and, especially given how little of Elf/Human
history we have, is very difficult to get a handle on.
The best we can do is draw parallels to small aspects of
it. But I don't think there is anything in human history
that is truly analogous to it on a broad scale.

> Carol :
>
> But you make an interesting point here: we know of no
> previous House-Elf rebellion. ...It's one thing for 
> the Wizards to take House-Elf servitude for granted, 
> ... but the House-Elves seem to take it for granted, 
> too, and even to want it. You're right that Dobby would
> be thrilled to be owned by Harry, IMO; he's voluntarily
> accepted Harry as his master. ...Clearly, working, 
> specifically [working for humans in]... domestic 
> responsibilities, is ingrained into a house-elf's 
> nature, .... This view of life and work is not 
> indoctrination or enforced domination. Even a freed Elf
> wants to work for a human master, ...
> 

bboyminn:

Hope I didn't trim you statement down too much. I think
your statements are right on the money, and this genuine
desire to serve is precisely why 'human slavery' is a 
bad analogy. Human slaves could be fooled into thinking
their life was great, and in a very rare cases life was
probably pretty good. But I think it is truly in the 
nature of elves to serve others. That's not 
indoctrination, or illusion, or delusion, it truly is at
the core of their being. 

Think of the mythology of this type of creature; brownies,
etc.... In a small sense these creatures are pranksters.
They thought it great fun and a great laugh to imagine 
the tailor or shoemaker coming down in the morning and 
finding all the fabulous products sitting there waiting
for them. If the tailor or the shoemaker acknowledged the
Elves by offerring 'pay' of some type, it spoiled the 
joke and the elves left.

Again the above statement isn't absolute, it just servers
to illustrate that the motivations of this type of 
creature are far far different than slaves.

> Carol :
>
> ...
> 
> Freedom is not necessarily a wonderful thing ... They
> can't even look in the Daily Prophet for jobs.
> ...
> 

bboyminn:

Note, there is the House-Elf Relocation Office at the
Ministry of Magic. But I doubt that it provides the Elves
with much choice. They just go to the house of the next
wizard who comes along with a need. To some extent that
creates forced loyalty. Originally, they were tied to
the House of their ancestors and had good reason to 
maintain fierce loyalty to both their own Masters and to
their ancestor. But when simply assigned to a house at 
random, their loyalty is merely a by-product of their 
nature, but is not heart felt.

I believe in the beginning, house-elves were very much
like Brownies. Their work was voluntary. Wizard however
knowing a good thing when they saw it, twisted their
relationship with Elves, manipulating the Elfin honor,
pride, and loyalty into the enslavement we have today.

> Carol:
> ...
>
> So I think Hermione is wrong to want to free the 
> House-Elves, and I don't think that any program of 
> indoctrination is going to turn most of them into 
> Dobbys. What's needed, IMO, is some sort of code
> regulating the treatment of House-Elves,.... Humane 
> treatment, yes. Freedom, no. At least, I think that's
> the House-Elves' perspective.
> 

bboyminn:

Absolutely, it is not House-Elves that are 'broken' and
therefore House-Elves do not need to be fixed. It is 
wizard who are 'broken', and they need a huge attitude
adjustment with regard to Elves. I speculated that at
some point, beyond the series, that Hermione would get
the idea to truly equate House-Elves with Slavery and
make a strong case for it. That puts the wizard world
in a precarious position; they either have to admit 
that Elves are free self-determining creatures, or that
they are slaves held against their will. 

The wizard world may be a bit behind the times, but I
speculated that none of them would openly admit to 
holding slaves, and that reluctance to endorse slavery
would force them to admit that Elves were free and
served by their own choice. That little twist of 
semantics would open the door to fair and honorable
treatment of Elves by wizards. Bright girl that 
Hermione.

Even if this is just my own fan-fic fantasy, I think
it helps illustrate the nature of the relationship
between elves and humans. I genuinely think that the
current system of 'enslavement' has been brought about
by centuries of wizards manipulating the good nature of
Elves. 


> Carol, 
> not at all bothered by Harry's owning House-Elves as
> long as he treats them fairly (just how that applies 
> to Kreacher beyond ordering him to keep himself clean
> is anybody's guess)
>

bboyminn:

Given Hermione's influence and Harry's clear friendship 
with Dobby, I don't think Harry would allow himself to
own Dobby or any other Elf who came into his service 
freely, not in the truest sense. I think he would find 
some honorable way to bind them freely together to their
mutual benefit. I think he would find some way to go back
to the original relationship between Elves and humans in 
which Elves, in a sense, served in the spirit of fun, and
they chose when and if they would leave.

I know I haven't said much more that 'me too', but I hope
I have at least done so in a way that moves the subject
forward.

Steve/bboyminn