JKR and the boys (and girls)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 162105

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> Way back on November 14, Betsy replied to my claim that Hermione and
> Ginny must be close friends. Nearly two weeks, one busted DSL line,
> and an unexpected trip out of town later, I'm finally responding to
> her.  Sorry Betsy, for the ridiculous wait.

Betsy Hp:
Eep! Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water... <g>

> >> Betsy Hp:
> > Hermione doesn't tell Ginny about figuring out Rita Skeeter's 
> > secret, capturing her, or her big plan to have Rita write Harry's 
> > story up.  Ginny seems to find out about the DA club along with 
> > everyone else (after Ron and Harry).  There's nothing to suggest 
> > Ginny knew about the contract being hexed.

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> If these are the kind of secrets you're talking about, Hermione    
> isn't friends with Harry and Ron either.  Hermione keeps her own    
> counsel, even when she probably shouldn't, on lots of things.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree that Hermione is very independent and prefers to work on her 
own.  But when Hermione *does* share her plans, Ron or Harry are 
generally the first to hear of it.  And when Hermione needs a partner 
in crime, Ron or Harry are the ones generally roped in.  Ginny never 
is, that I've seen.  Frankly, IMO if Hermione and Ginny were as close 
as all that, JKR would have been forced to write Ginny a bigger role.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Ginny wasn't involved at all in Hermione's attempt to save
> > Buckbeak, even after Ron and Harry bowed out for a bit.

> >>Amiable Dorsai:  
> Too early.  Ginny and Hermione won't have had a chance to spend a   
> lot of time together until the summer of the Quidditch World Cup.  
> Their rather extensive knowledge of each other's lives only becomes 
> apparent after that.

Betsy Hp:
Huh.  See, I didn't think Ginny and Hermione spent all that much time 
together during the QWC (not even a full night, right?).  And I don't 
see any evidence that Ginny has "extensive knowledge" of Hermione's 
life.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I'm not arguing that there's only one way of writing close female 
> > friendship.  What I am saying is that I don't see evidence that 
> > Hermione and Ginny are *close* female friends.  Whatever the
> > manner or means.  In many ways I'd label them "friendly" rather 
> > than "friends". 

> Amiable Dorsai:
> Hmmm.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  I can't help but
> notice this largish anvil of Hermione's trust of Ginny with
> information she apparently shares with no one else, though.  

Betsy Hp:
I agree that this is where we're falling down.  You see this as an 
example of Ginny's closeness to Hermione.  While I think it comes 
down to Hermione's date for the Yule Ball not being that important a 
bit of information.  I doubt anyone other than Ron cared.  Annoying 
Ron was the only apparent reason for secrecy, and Ginny knew about 
Krum before Hermione decided to keep it a secret.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > when it's suggested that Hermione *does* have tons of female 
> > friends, I question. 

> Amiable Dorsai:
> Tons?  I think Ginny's rather more petite than that.

Betsy Hp:
Hee!  I was referring back to the original post that started the 
conversation here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/161430
> >>Miles:
> <snip>
> She [Hermione] seems to have very close friendships with
> several girls including Ginny...
> <snip>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > And Hermione's attitude during GoF seemed much more
> > "goodness this boy and girl thing is soo silly" than "this is what
> > hopes and dreams are made of!<3!).  

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> > You're going to have to fire some more canon at me to get me
> > to accept that--what I recall is a Hermione who took the whole
> > thing very seriously indeed, to the point where she dolled
> > herself up for the first time we ever see, applying herself so
> > assiduously to the task that her two best male friends took a
> > while to recognize her.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > ...  And while she did take some time to doll herself up, she was 
> > also very careful to point out that this was not her normal       
> > behavior.  

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> I am so badly confused: Either it was a big enough deal that she
> radically changed her normal behavior for it, or it was no big deal 
> to her.  How do you manage to have both propositions be true at the 
> same time?

Betsy Hp:
I blame JKR.  Realistically, you're correct.  A girl with no interest 
in hair, make-up, and fashion does not suddenly, with no help 
whatsoever, turn out as poised and pressed as JKR has Hermione.

But JKR wrote the belle of the ball scene without any suggestion that 
older Gryffindors girls (or other sort of fairy godmother) helped 
Hermione in anyway.  JKR also has Hermione poo-poo the whole effort 
as far too much time wasted on a rather silly goal.  So we have a 
girl who, as you put it, radically changes her normal behavior while 
maintaining that it was all no big deal.  Do I smell shenanigans?  
Damn straight.  Personally, I think JKR sacrificed character for 
a "think of the children!" moment.

But since there's no hint of Krum as Hermione's burning love 
interest, since Hermione doesn't turn over a new leaf and become 
interested in the WW's fashions, I believe the contradiction stands.  
Hermione is "above" girlish things like appearance and boys.  But 
whenever she's forced to enter that particular arena, she 
effortlessly rules.

Betsy Hp