JKR and the boys (and girls)

[amiabledorsai]

No: HPFGUIDX 162171

>Amiable Dorsai:
>> Sorry Betsy, for the ridiculous wait.

> Betsy Hp:
> Eep! Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water... 
> <g>

<snip>

> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > Ginny wasn't involved at all in Hermione's attempt to save
> > > Buckbeak, even after Ron and Harry bowed out for a bit.
> 
> > >>Amiable Dorsai:  
> > Too early.  Ginny and Hermione won't have had a chance to spend a   
> > lot of time together until the summer of the Quidditch World Cup.  
> > Their rather extensive knowledge of each other's lives only
> > becomes apparent after that.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Huh.  See, I didn't think Ginny and Hermione spent all that much
> time together during the QWC (not even a full night, right?).

Amiable Dorsai:
Pippin beat me to it, I see, but they had at least a week, according
to the Lexicon's timeline.  Yeah, the Quidditch World Cup debacle took
only a day and a night, but they went back to The Burrow afterwards
and had some time before school.  It may have been longer, Hermione
was already there when Harry came out the Floo from the Dursleys.

Betsy Hp:
>  And I don't see any evidence that Ginny has "extensive knowledge"
of Hermione's 
> life.

Amiable Dorsai:
She knew about Viktor, she knew (or claimed to know) that Hermione and
Viktor "snogged".  Hermione told her enough about Harry that she
eventually got her man.  Can you imagine Hermione (Hermione, now, not
some other girl--I'm talking about the girl who figured out that one
her teachers was a *werewolf* and didn't spill.) telling anybody who
was not a close friend these things?

And there's no point in pretending that the Ball was of no importance
to Hermione, whatever she may have said about it, her actions tell the
tale.
> 
> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > I'm not arguing that there's only one way of writing close
> > > female friendship.  What I am saying is that I don't see
> > > evidence that Hermione and Ginny are *close* female friends.
> > > Whatever the manner or means.  In many ways I'd label them
> > > "friendly" rather than "friends". 
> 
> > Amiable Dorsai:
> > Hmmm.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  I can't help
> > but notice this largish anvil of Hermione's trust of Ginny with
> > information she apparently shares with no one else, though.  
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I agree that this is where we're falling down.  You see this as an 
> example of Ginny's closeness to Hermione.  While I think it comes 
> down to Hermione's date for the Yule Ball not being that important a 
> bit of information.  I doubt anyone other than Ron cared.  Annoying 
> Ron was the only apparent reason for secrecy, and Ginny knew about 
> Krum before Hermione decided to keep it a secret.

Amiable Dorsai:
You keep saying that Hermione thought this was no big deal, when her
behavior, (as opposed to her words) indicates that it was a very big 
deal indeed--more on that in a bit.

<Snip>
> > >>Amiable Dorsai:
> > I am so badly confused: Either it was a big enough deal that she
> > radically changed her normal behavior for it, or it was no big
> > deal at all to her.  How do you manage to have both propositions  
> > be true at the same time?
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I blame JKR.  Realistically, you're correct.  A girl with no
> interest in hair, make-up, and fashion does not suddenly, with no
> help whatsoever, turn out as poised and pressed as JKR has Hermione.

Amiable Dorsai:
So you're saying that Hermione does, in fact, have friends who will
help her?  Who will tell her about Sleekeazy, perhaps teach her a few
makeup charms?  Could I go out on a limb here, and suggest that one of
them has red hair?

Betsy Hp:
> But JKR wrote the belle of the ball scene without any suggestion
> that older Gryffindors girls (or other sort of fairy godmother)
> helped Hermione in anyway.  JKR also has Hermione poo-poo the
> whole effort as far too much time wasted on a rather silly goal.
> So we have a girl who, as you put it, radically changes her normal
> behavior while maintaining that it was all no big deal.  Do I smell
> shenanigans?  
> Damn straight.  Personally, I think JKR sacrificed character for 
> a "think of the children!" moment.

Amiable Dorsai:

<Blink>

<Blink>

Uhm, Betsy, this *is* characterization.  Hermione is somewhat
embarrassed about the "girly" side of her personality, but she clearly
has one.  She may, by her words, deprecate the ball, but her
actions...  well, her actions tell a different story.

I feel a little presumptuous--I'm a middle-aged guy telling a woman
how a teenaged girl thinks--but I'm going to claim superior knowledge
here.  My high school was what is now called a "magnet" school; the
student body was made up of kids who were high achievers in grade
school.  We had an abundance of girls who were more like Hermione than
like Lavender or Parvati.  They were the girls my buddies and I hung
out with, lusted after, and dated.  Hermione would have been right at
home, trust me.

It was the seventies, an outside observer would have concluded that
the school uniform was jeans and sweatshirts and that those girls were
all allergic to lipstick.

Until the Prom.

Let me just say that the Yule Ball scene, where Harry does not, at
first, recognize his female best friend, had a certain resonance for
me.  I remember being particularly astonished at how much... profile a
girl could hide under a sweatshirt.

Maybe this is why I like Hermione so much: warts and all, she feels
like an old friend.

Betsy Hp:
> But since there's no hint of Krum as Hermione's burning love 
> interest, since Hermione doesn't turn over a new leaf and become 
> interested in the WW's fashions, I believe the contradiction stands.  
> Hermione is "above" girlish things like appearance and boys.  But 
> whenever she's forced to enter that particular arena, she 
> effortlessly rules.

Amiable Dorsai:
Oh, come on Betsy, be fair, this is Hermione we're talking about--she
would have put out whatever effort was necessary to achieve her goal;
I picture her filling out a notebook or two on the subject of beauty
charms.

Amiable Dorsai