Dumbledore Does Lie - Sort Of

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 159109

---  "finwitch" <finwitch at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Abergoat writes:
> > 
> > But we've already seen that a pensieve gives more 
> > than the viewer originally knew about ... and what 
> > is Legilimency but using the mind as a pensieve in
> > place? 

bboyminn:

Well, it is a very minor side point to the discussion but
I don't think Legilimency is 'the mind as a pensieve in 
place'. We know the Pensieve is very objective since it
allows you to observe a memory as a neutral third party
viewer. The minute details of the Pensieve is due to the 
minds ability to pick up many many details of an event 
that go directly into subconscious memory. 

To some extent, you can consciously make the real world
vanish, to make it disappear completely, replace by 
purely imagined events. It's called a daydream. Haven't
you ever been so deeply in thought that you were 
completely distracted from the world around you. Haven't 
you ever been pulled back to reality by someone shaking 
you and saying 'Hey! Hey! I'm talking to you.' 

Now more importantly, do you think your ears stopped 
functioning while you were lost in thought or deep in a
daydream? Of course they didn't. They continued to 
receive information, the continued to convert that 
information into brain waves, and that information was 
stored in your brainm but it was done subconsciously 
because you conscious awareness was elsewhere. 

Legilimency accesses the conscious mind, in my view, and
therefore if it probed the depths of your mind for 
information obtained during a boring class in which you 
were daydreaming, it would get the daydream, but if your 
memory of the class were put into a Pensieve, I think it
would be the whole event; daydream plus subconscious 
reality. Though I admit that would probably be one 
confusing memory to sort out. (That's actually kind of
fun to try to imagine.)

So, when Harry is in Snape's memory, he is able to hear
and see things that Snape was only vaguely aware of 
because even as it happens in real-time real-life, Snape
is constructing the event from past memories and from
a lot of subconscious input. For example, Snape doesn't 
have to examine the beech tree in detail at that time
because Snape has seen the tree countless times. One 
quick glance and the details of it are filled in with
information from stored memories. He doesn't have to be
consciously aware of the specifics of the Marauder's
conversation for that information to be there in his 
subconscious memory. In the Pensieve we have both 
conscious and subconscious details pulled together to 
reconstruct the event in full 3D reality. 

I don't really think that is how Legilimency works. I
won't say the Legilimency works /totally/ on a conscious
level, only that it works mostly on a conscious level,
and does so to a far greater degree than the Pensieve.

> > ...edited...
> 
> Finwitch:
> 
> Indeed. But somehow his wording made me wonder. He said
> that those who know the full contents are standing *in 
> this spidery shed*... Granted, this is interpreted as 
> Harry&Dumbledore - question is, was there  someone else 
> there as well -- ....edited...
>
> Finwitch
>


bboyminn;

Now to the topic at hand. I think this goes back to our
previous and current discussions in which it was asserted
that (admitedly overstated here by me) Dumbledore should
tell everyone everything. 

Some people seem to object to Dumbledore /not/ constantly 
explaining everything he does and everything he says to 
everyone around him. But, whether in business or war or
daily life, everything and everyone operates on the 
concept of 'need to know'. Dumbledore tell people what
he feels they need to know and does so when he feels 
they need to know it. He is under no obligation, and 
indeed would be foolish to do so, to tell everyone
everything.

As to the Prophesy, certainly Dumbledore operated on a
need to know basis. NO ONE, other that Harry, needed to 
know EXACTLY what the Prophesy said. Other people needed
to know that it existed and what, in general, it was 
about; the Ministry for example. Some needed to know
more, some needed to know less, but no one needed to 
know exactly what it said. That was an act of Strategic
Wisdom on Dumbledore's part; the fewer who know, the 
few who can inadvertently tell.

So, when Dumbledore says only he and Harry know the
Prophecy, I think he is literally correct, but that 
doesn't, by any means, mean that others don't know
/about/ the Prophecy, and again, each knowing only
what they need to know to do their job.

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn