Draco and Dumbledore WAS: Re: Dumbledore Does Lie - Sort Of

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 159825


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Erm.... my question was where in canon it shows that Dumbledore 
> **has 
> > a history of knowing what is best**.
<SNIP>
> > He removed the stone from Gringotts - you are joking, right? He 
> > brought the stone to Hogwarts to *give Harry a chance to fight 
> > Voldemort** ( paraphrase) - NO, I do not think that this is what 
> was 
> > best from within the story.
> 
> Hickengruendler:
> 
> Did he really, though? I know that this is what Harry speculates, 
but 
> do we know that this really was Dumbledore's motivation? Hagrid 
said, 
> that Gringotts was the safest place in Britain except for 
Hogwarts, 
> therefore I assume it makes sense to transfer the Stone from the 
> second safest to the safest place. <SNIP>

Alla:

I snipped what you wrote and what can sure be Dumbledore's 
motivations, but I find myself thoroughly persuaded by Dicentra's 
lovely post, called "Dumbledore wrote book I"

Jo Serenadust brought another post of Dicentra recently, which I 
also love love love and here is the link to this one:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/33289

As to whether Harry speculates about it, didn't you find those words 
of his to be very erm.... not Harry's? In a sense that this was IMO 
clearly JKR talking through Harry. LOL, I mean she always does of 
course, but those words sounded sort of out of place, I don't know 
if it makes any sense.


> Alla:
>  
> > He knew that Voldemort would returned, erm and he failed to 
> recognise 
> > the DE in Hogwarts and actually prevent Harry from being 
tortured? 
> 
> Hickengruendler:
> 
> According to Neville, Augusta Longbottom also said, that Voldie 
would 
> return someday. Therefore I don't think this is a question of 
> Dumbledore knowing best anyway, it's more a question about 
Dumbledore 
> being realistic, instead of putting his head into the sand. But 
> whatever Dumbledore's flaws may be, I will not condem him for not 
> recognizing every Death Eater as a such. And after all, Gandalf 
> trusted Saruman in the beginning as well. (In the beginning of 
LoTR 
> that is, in "reality" he trusted him for several centuries).

Alla:

But I am not condemning Dumbledore, really, truly I am not :) I am 
just taking an issue with Dumbledore *having a history of knowing 
what is best* I am arguing that Dumbledore has a history of making 
mistakes upon mistakes upon mistakes and often those mistakes are 
made with the best motivation in heart, sometimes they are not IMO, 
but this is still a very long road to travel to condemn a character.

So far, I condemn Snape ;) and think that Voldemort condemned 
himself long time ago, that is about it in the short list of 
characters I condemn, moreover I fully accept the possibility that 
JKR may not condemn Snape either ( does not mean that I will agree 
with that though ;)  Dumbledore,well I do want to slap him often 
enough, but I still want to hug him sometimes,so not everything is 
lost.


> Hickengruendler:
> <BIG SNIP>
> He helped Hagrid as good as he can, IMO, which 
> sadly is more than can be said about the next case.

Alla:

Again, entirely plausible and even understandable if he was indeed 
as conflicted as you describe and did not have much power, etc, I 
just take an issue with has a history of knowing what's best and all 
that.

 
> Alla:
> 
> > And yes, indeed he recognised that Sirius was innocent, took him 
> > thirteen years. Thank goodness for Sirius escaping I guess.
> 
> Hickengruendler:
> 
> You know, I have been a Dumbledore defender in this case in the 
> beginning, but the more I read, the more I am convinced by his 
> critics in this case. At the very least Dumbledore should have 
tried 
> to convince Crouch, to give *everyone* a fair trial. < SNIP> I 
think I'll continue to assume, that Dumbledore did try his best at 
> least in this case, but simply hadn't the power to convince 
Crouch. 
> It makes me help to continue liking him.


Alla:

You know, I honestly never write to convince people to change their 
mind, well, maybe in my earlier days when I was in more mood for out 
and out debate I wrote to try to convince hypothetical reader, but 
this was just how I tried to structure my writing, not directing at 
any list members to change their mind, but if somebody decided to 
change their mind, well this is a nice and unexpected bonus :)

Thank you. And yes, I would like to assume what you assume as well :)

Maybe I can convince myself to do so, because I do not want to end 
up hating Dumbledore. I have Snape for that <g>

Magpie:

<SNIP>

He knows Draco is trying to kill 
> him all year, he knows these attempts lead to other people getting 
hurt, and 
> his plan is not to confront him or get evidence on him but to 
assign Snape 
> to run interference. I thought he said all this himself.  It seems 
like if 
> you take that away from him and define his actions through outside 
plot 
> circumstances you lose the essence of Dumble "Second Chances and 
Our Choices 
> Make Us Who We Are!" Dore.  Alla may not approve of the risks that 
> Dumbledore is taking but she seems to have the same idea of 
Dumbledore's 
> motivations.


Alla:

I randomly cut your post to say that absolutely I have the identical 
idea of Dumbledore's motivations, we just disagree on whether he was 
careless in doing it, I suppose.

I will tell you even more, I can totally buy your idea that 
everything that happened on the Tower, except Dumbledore's death, 
may end up helping good guys, unintended consequences and all that.

Unintended consequences are indeed happening all the time in 
Potterverse, like Snape telling the Prophecy to Voldemort brought 
not only the deaths of innocents, but the peace to WW for more than 
decade.

That does not mean that because of unintended good consequences the 
bad action will look any better for me, although maybe you are right 
and everything what happened would be intended consequence, hehe.

I totally get the storyline, I just think that Dumbledore 
concentrated on one soul and neglected many others, but I do not 
think that JKR thinks the way I do.

I think her reasoning is exactly as yours, that it was all worth it.

JMO,

Alla