Draco and Dumbledore WAS: Re: Dumbledore Does Lie - Sort Of

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 160039

> > a_svirn:
> > By what definition? There is an ongoing debate on whether or not
> > children should be fully responsible for their actions. No one 
ever
> > doubted, however, that they are capable of forming intent and
> > committing crime. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Oh, lots of people doubt that. The age of criminal responsibility 
in Europe
> alone varies all the way from 8 to 18 - below that age a child 
cannot
> be considered to have committed a crime and no charge can be 
brought.
> In RL Scotland the age is eight, but we already know that the WW
> has its own rules. 

a_svirn:
And that's proves me wrong how? I said that no one ever doubted that 
children are capable of crime and you are saying that they aren't 
often held responsible for it. Which means that they can commit 
crime but likely to get away with it. Which is exactly what I said.  

Except  that at sixteen Draco would  be held responsible anyway. 


> Pippin:
> I think JKR made it plain on the tower that Draco's intention to 
kill
> Dumbledore was not clear, otherwise he would have done it
> as soon as he arrived. 

a_svirn:
But were not discussing the Tower incident. We were discussing the 
previous murder attempts. Not that Rowling made anything plain, 
considering that Draco didn't make his choice. In the end Snape did 
it for him. 

> Pippin:
> Draco launched the attacks while he was still underage, but had 
passed
> his seventeenth birthday by the time he arrived on the tower. Then
> he could make a choice with full knowledge of what he was doing. I
> don't see him as mature enough to do so earlier and I think canon
> bears this out.

a_svirn:
You may be right. Not that I believe that Rowling's "moral message" 
can be reduced to such legal pettifogging, but that's a valid point. 
But then again, we weren't discussing Draco's last attempt. 

> Pippin:
> So it's okay for Harry to yield to Voldemort's manipulations and 
endanger
> his fellow students because he was trying to save his godfather, 
> but it's not okay for Draco to yield to Voldemort's manipulations 
and
> endanger his fellow students because he was trying to save his 
family?

a_svirn:
Again, we were discussing the matter of intent, weren't we? Draco 
voluntary enlisted as a Voldemort's hit-man. I don't think it's okay 
to equate a contract murder with a reckless rescue mission. 

> Pippin:
> Taking Draco into custody would not have changed that. It wouldn't
> have prevented the mead attempt, or the necklace, because Draco 
didn't
> have to be at Hogwarts in order to send messages to Rosmerta.

a_svirn:
Maybe a genuine investigation of the first attempt would, though? 
Besides, I don't see how Draco could do anything while being 
in "custody". 

> Pippin:
> Dumbledore  saw that Draco was warned, and the warning put a stop 
to the
> attempts.  I'd say you are the one being hard on the old man. 

a_svirn:
Oh, so he wasn't being selfish, he was just being myopic. The 
attempts stopped so naturally Draco abandoned the project. Something 
is not quite all right with this logic, seems to me. 

> Pippin: 
> Anyway, does anyone really doubt that they day will come when 
Harry will
> be very glad that Dumbledore helped Draco discover that he was not 
a 
> killer on the Tower?

a_svirn:
In COS Harry lived to glad that Hagrid had sent him to the spiders. 
It doesn't make it OK for Hagrid to have done so. 


> > Pippin:
> > > Sirius's case is different. He was thought to be insane, which
> > > AFAWK would have denied him a trial in any case, and the 
> > > evidence against him was overwhelming. 
> > 
> > a_svirn:
> > I don't remember it's said anywhere in canon that people can 
avoid
> > trial on the ground of insanity. Besides, in that case, Sirius 
would
> > have ended up in St Mungo, rather than in Azkaban.
> 
> Pippin:
> Bode wasn't tried for trying to remove the prophecy.
> He was indeed sent to St Mungo's, not Azkaban, but  he wasn't 
considered 
> dangerous.

a_svirn:
And what does it have to do with anything? You said that Sirius was 
denied a trial because he was thought insane. I am saying that in 
that case he would have been sent to St. Mungo's, not to Azkaban. 
Insane people are sent to clinics not to prisons.