Draco and Dumbledore/ Molly and Harry-Treated like Family

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 160113

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol:
> > How? I still don't understand what you expected them to do, 
> especially given the restraints that the UV placed on Snape (and on
DD, who  couldn't confront Draco directly). 
> 
> a_svirn:
> You built your argument on the fact that Snape was incapacitated by 
> the vow. But that's hardly a consideration that should have weighted 
> against danger to the students. While Dumbledore thought it was only 
> his life in danger it was up to him to try to save Snape; once it 
> became evident that students' lives are at stake it shouldn't have 
> been an option any longer. 

Carol again:
Okay. Snape prevented Draco from resorting to any more smuggled Dark
artifacts that could go astray. The protections on the castle and its
grounds had been strengthened (see above). Snape had placed Crabbe and
Goyle in detention and probably determined that they were helping
Draco without knowing what they were up to. Snape had discovered that
Draco had outside help, which could only mean DEs. Dumbledore brought
in the Order when he left the castle to find the Horcrux with Harry,
which had to be done before the final confrontation, which Dumbledore
knew might result in his death. Snape was evidently following Draco or
he could not have been there to save him from Sectumsempra. He then
protects *Harry* by not expelling him and keeping an eye on him during
his detentions. (As for Draco, they know where he is, if only because
Harry has told them, but I doubt that they needed his information.)
*What else* do you think they ought to have done? *What else* was it
possible to do? Dumbledore could not confront Draco without activating
the Vow; Snape could not do so a second time without revealing his
true loyalties. I really don't understand what you think they ought to
have done instead, or in addition to, what they actually did. Can you
clarify, please, with specific actions you think they should have
performed but did not?

> a_svirn (out of sequence, sorry.):
> I've yet to know that launching a genuine investigation of murder 
> attempts is an infringement of civil rights. As for his choices, he 
> made them quite clear by carrying out two separate murder attempts 
> and working assiduously on the third. 
> 
Carol:
But how could they have launched an investigation without triggering
the Unbreakable Vow? Unless that's what the spy network was doing (see
below). I'll bet that Snape and Dumbledoere knew before Harry did that
Draco was doing something in the RoR and that he was polyjuicing
Crabbe and Goyle. They also knew from his talk with Snape that he had
DE accomplices, who had to be working in Hogsmeade, specifically in
the Three Broomsticks, the source of both the cursed necklace and the
poisoned mead. I'll bet that Talisman is right that DD suspected
Rosmerta's involvement long before he questioned Draco on the tower.
(Why did he make sure that she saw him leave, and why did he return to
the Three Broomsticks instead of the Hog's Head?)

Carol earlier:
> We have Snape preventing Draco from engaging in any more amateurish
stunts that randomly injure students (as opposed to the three people
actually in danger from Draco's as yet unknown plan), 
> 
> a_svirn:
> How do you estimate the degree of danger unknown? Draco could have 
> planned the destruction of the entire Hogwarts population for all 
> they know. 

Carol:
Clearly not. According to Dumbledore on the tower, he knew all year
that Draco was trying to kill him and only him. His source for this
information has to be Snape. A cursed necklace and a poisoned bottle
of mead also indicate a limited target.

Carol earlier:
> the Order in Hogsmeade and (I think) Tonks tailing Harry in an
Invisibility Cloak, locks on the gates, the known passages watched, no
owl correspondence, the usual spy network in the Hogs Head and maybe
the Three Broomsticks, students searched coming from and even going to
Hogsmeade, an anti-flying charm, and perhaps extra protections we
don't know about. And we have the Order actually inside Hogwarts when
DD leaves for the Horcrux hunt. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> And all of the measures above were pointless, weren't they? 
Precisely because they didn't know what Draco was up to. You can't 
prevent something you know nothing about. 

Carol responds:
Pointless? Tonks prevents Harry from strangling Mundungus, for one
thing. And there's probably more to what she was doing than we
presently know. 

More important, maybe Dumbledore knew or suspected more than you think
(though he can't specifically have known about the Vanishing Cabinet
unless he's more omniscient than it appears at the moment) since he
placed the Order in Hogwarts on the very night when it was needed.

I've already explained several times how further injuries to students
were prevented by Snape's advice to Draco to avoid amateurish tactics.
It's Dumbledore who died, right? It appears that Dumbledore knew he,
and he alone, had to die. (IMO, "Severus, please" probably means,
"Severus, please remember your promise" or "Severus, please keep the
Unbreakable Vow." And you agree that Snape saved Harry from the Crucio
and got the DEs out of Hogwarts, etc.) 

As I keep saying and you keep ignoring, Dumbledore would not have died
(unless the poison killed him) if he hadn't *chosen* to fly to the
astronomy tower to confront Draco. The protective measures he took did
protect the students. None would have been present at the battle if
Harry hadn't asked the five loyal DA members to be there, and only
three of them actually participated in the battle. The Order kept
those who didn't run up onto the tower from infiltrating Hogwarts.
Snape got all those who weren't stunned or petrified out of the school
and off the grounds. (The only serious injury occurred to a member of
the Order, an adult who was knowingly risking his life to protect the
school.)

 
> > Carol:
> and that it was urgent to find this one Horcrux while
> > DD was still alive. (Yes, it was a fake, but he didn't know that, 
> and
> > finding the fake Horcrux is a step toward finding the real one, 
> not a
> > dead end.) And the Order did protect the school. No students other
> > than the DA five were in danger. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Every student in Hogwarts was in danger while death eaters ran free 
> in the castle. And if it weren't for the DA members the phoenixes 
> would have been overpowered. They already lost Bill when the junior 
> league joined the fray. 

Carol:
The Death Eaters did not run free into the castle. The Order members
and Snape stopped them. If you wish to think that the DA members
helped, fine. Maybe DD wanted them to be there and knew what Harry
would do when he sent him to get the Invisibility Cloak that he was
supposed to have with him at all times? However, I have yet to see
what difference their presence made except that Hermione and Luna were
conveniently able to escort the stunned Flitwick to the hospital wing.

Carol earlier:
> And once Greyback came down from the tower, an Order member (Snape?)
petrified him. 
> Granted, he did mutilate Bill's face earlier, and I don't know why
he wasn't stunned or petrified then. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> For the same reason that death eaters weren't stopped at all – they 
> were better fighters.
>
Carol:
Who were better fighters? The Order members clearly kept the DEs out
of the school until Snape ordered them out. The DA weren't really
needed (note that Neville is out of action fairly early and only Felix
Felicis protects them from all those stray AKs.) The DEs *were*
stopped from getting into the school. They weren't stopped from
getting to the top of the tower, but that wouldn't have happened if
Dumbledore hadn't chosen to go there. Maybe that sacrificial action is
what saved the school?

Carol, still failing to see how an investigation *which, indeed, may
have been conducted to the degree that it was possible) would have
prevented what occurred and still waiting to see what else you think
that Snape and DD could have done