Draco and Dumbledore LONG, beware

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 160184

> > Alla:
> > 
> > I do **not** share your confidence that Harry would have 
> necessarily tried Sectusemptra. <SNIP> 
> Dungrollin:
> "Harry ignored her. He had just found an incantation 
(Sectumsempra!) 
> scrawled in a margin above the intriguing words 'For Enemies', and 
> was itching to try it out, but thought it best not to in front of 
> Hermione. Instead, he surreptitiously folded down the corner of 
the 
> page."
> - HBP The Unknowable Room p419(UK)
> 
> "Harry was about to put his book away again whe he noticed the 
> corner of a page folded down; turning to it, he saw the 
Sectumsempra 
> spell, captioned 'For Enemies', that he had marked a few weeks 
> previously. he had still not found out what it did, mainly because 
> he did not want to test it around Hermione, but he was considering 
> trying it out on McLaggen next time he came up behind him 
unawares."
> - HBP Sectumsempra p484 (UK)
> 
> It's a mere four and a half pages after this that he uses the 
spell 
> on Malfoy. And the main reason he hadn't tried it out yet was that 
> he didn't want to do it in front of Hermione.

Alla:

I think that if he indeed wanted to try Sectusemptra **that** badly 
and he certainly wishes to try it out ( do not know, maybe his 
subconscious sort of stops him temporarily or something), he would 
have tried it out **right away** when he sees Malfoy.

What do we see instead?

"Malfoy wheeled around, drawing his wand. Instinctively, Harry 
pulled out his own. Malfoy's hex missed Harry by inches, shattering 
the lamp on the wall beside him; Harry threw himself sideways, 
thought Levicorpus! and flicked his wand, but Malfoy blocked the 
jinx and raised his wand for another -

"No!No!Stop it!" squealed Moaning Murtle, her voice echoing loudly 
around the tilted room. "Stop. STOP!"

There was a loud bang and the bin behind Harry exploded; Harry 
attempted a Leg Locker Curse that backfired off the wall behind 
Malfoy's ear and smashed the cistern beneath Moaning Murtle, who 
screamed loudly; water poured everywhere and Harry slipped as 
Malfoy, his face contorted,cried, "Cruci--"

"SECTUSEMPTRA" belowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand widly"

- HBP, am.ed., p.522, paperback.

So, Harry defends himself with two hexes, which are really quite 
harmless, no?

And he only uses sectusemptra when he is slipping and wet and on the 
floor.

I do not know, Harry indeed seemed awfully eager to try it out when 
he was thinking about it, but when it came to action, he does not do 
it except the last attempt to defend himself against one of the 
three most awful curses of WW.


Dungrollin:
> Yeah, I'm fairly confident he'd have tried it out on someone like 
> McLaggan, though perhaps not *in the back*, the way he considers 
> doing in the second quote.

Alla:

Then I have nothing to add except agree to disagree, but I am not 
even disagreeing that it may have never happened, because surely 
somebody else could have attacked Harry and used Unforgivable on him.

It is certainly possible that he would have tried it, all that I am 
disagreeing with that it would have absolutely happened and that is 
why I am disagreeing that Severus Snape just had to be there.

 
> Dung:
> You miss my point. I'm saying that in HBP there is over six months 
> between Snape's talking to Draco and the Tower during which time 
> Snape and Dumbledore are aware of Voldy's plan and what his goal 
is. 
> If that plan were to be foiled by apprehending Draco (killing 
Snape, 
> Draco is 'killed on paper' and smuggled away) Voldy would move on 
to 
> a new plan, and DD wouldn't have a spy in Voldy's inner circle to 
> tell him what that plan was (as he did in HBP and OotP). He'd be 
> working in the dark for the last six months (15 chapters) of HBP.
<SNIP>
 
Alla:

Yes, I indeed missed the point, sorry about that. I thought you were 
extrapolating to the Snape after Tower already.

Well, if we are still talking about Snape of that time period, then 
I just have to voice my disagreement that Voldy would have 
necessarily moved to new plan. ( Would he have find new DE against 
whom he wants revenge right away?)

In any event, even if he did, they would have to think about this 
when it comes, because Draco related danger was there **now** IMO.


> Magpie:
> Reading the book the first time I knew which spell Harry was 
trying out and 
> knew he couldn't try it out because of that.  Had he tried it out 
on 
> McLaggan he would have just nicked him, more like Snape did to 
James.  The 
> only reason it's so gruesome on Malfoy is because they're fighting 
and Harry 
> waves his wand "wildly" and casts the spell in desperation.  So 
I'd have to 
> say I don't think the spell was a danger without Malfoy.  Harry 
would have 
> hurt McClaggen, but in a small way that showed him how vicious the 
spell 
> was.

Alla:

That is interesting. You are saying that strength of the spell would 
have been different or because they would not have been fighting, 
the spell would have had totally diffefent effect? Just curious.

> Dungrollin:
> I know this is a waste of time, but you have all spectacularly 
missed 
> the point I was making, which was that *having Snape around* saves 
> lives. Three, in fact, over the course of HBP. DD, Katie and 
Malfoy.

Alla:

Snape saved Dumbledore's life during HBP? Am I indeed missing 
something really major here? I seem to remember him dead from 
Snape's hand at the end. Are you talking about the ring? Because if 
you do, then again I must disagree that this is indeed happened with 
absolute certainty, because for all I know Snape only slowed down 
the curse and did it on purpose to finish Dumbledore off at the 
first appropriate situation. Yes, I know that Dumbledore thought 
that Snape saved him, but dare I say that I do not necessarily think 
that Dumbledore is right in Snape related matters?

Katie and Malfoy - yes, he did, but he did it because he was there 
and who says that if he was not there, someone else would not have 
done so?

Dumbledore:
<SNIP> 
> It is better for that "bunch of schoolchildren" that Snape is 
around 
> to save them from each other when things go wrong.
>

Alla:

And who would save those schoolchildren from Snape if he reveals his 
true colours ( as I see them of course) in the unexpected moment?

> Pippin:
<HUGE SNIP>
> You seem to forget 
> that it is Voldemort, not  Dumbledore or even Draco, who has
> chosen to make war on children. 
<HUGE SNIP>

Alla:

No, I remember it very well, I just think that Dumbledore has a duty 
to not put them in the line of enemy fire,whenever possible.

> Alla:
> And of course Houses are likely be united, etc, I just not sure 
what
> it has to do with letting wanna be assasin run around the school.
> 
> Pippin:
> Draco has shown, ingenuity, determination, and the leadership 
skills 
> to persuade a pair of young toughs to be seen in public disguised 
as 
> little girls. Who else could persuade the Slytherins they need to 
be
> united?

Alla:

HAHA. After HBP I would not be surprised if Draco indeed would be 
that Slytherin ( waves at Betsy, remembering our past heated debates 
about that), but I am still hoping that someone better could emerge.

But question one do you seriously think that Draco needed to do 
serious persuaasion work on Crabbe and Goyle who looked to me as his 
faithful slaves throughout the books and question two even if he 
did, does it mean that this somehow mitigates his murder attempts or 
something.

Julie:
<SNIP>
> Certainly Dumbledore played it so he could save them all, rather 
than
> sacrificing Snape and perhaps Draco by confining Draco, but in this
> process the rest of the students were never again in danger  (after
> the necklace and mead attempts). I have to assume you are arguing
> that this installation of the Order at Hogwarts, and the 
resulting  fact
> that no students were attacked when the DEs invaded (except those
> students who *chose* to fight the DEs), is NOT  sufficient enough
> evidence that Dumbledore took the protection of the students very 
> seriously indeed and did not sacrifice their safety for the  well-
being
> of Snape and Draco? 
<SNIP>

Alla:

I have to say that  I have to add to that list the fact that second 
attempt was allowed to happen at all.

As far as I am concerned Dumbledore should have acted *after* 
poisoned necklace happened and **fast**, which he did not IMO, at 
least definitely not sufficiently.

JMO,

Alla.