CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 160438




Carol again:
Forgive me, but you're begging the question here by taking your point
for granted. As I said, we don't know the characteristics of a
Horcrux, other than that a Horcrux contains a soul fragment, anchoring
the main or core soul to the earth and preventing the wizard from
dying. And the "bit" of Voldemort contained in Harry seems to be some
of his powers, including Parseltongue. We do not know and have not
been told either by DD or the narrator that that "bit" is a soul 
fragment.


Snow:

This is speculation at this point backed by canon you can produce, or 
am I wrong?

Carol responds:
Thanks for the clarification. If you'll forgive me, I think "acquire"
might be closer to your intended meaning since "obtain" implies
intention, and Harry certainly made no effort to "obtain" a bit of
Voldemort, whether we're speaking of powers or a soul fragment.

Snow:

You are absolutely correct in your observation. The terminology 
although both apply, the best fitted for my contention would be 
acquire.  

Carol responds:
Here I agree with you. The Voldiebit, whatever it is (and it may not
be a soul bit) does not necessarily make Harry a Horcrux, any more
than Ginny was a Horcrux when Diary!Tom possessed her.

Snow:

Thank you and I quite agree with the comparison that Ginny would no 
more be considered a Horcrux than Harry. 

Carol:

The diary, even
without Ginny's soul, is different from the other Horcruxes because it
contains at least one *memory* of Tom Riddle in addition to the soul
bit.

Snow:

How, oh yeah because it had a possible living soul within its binding?

Carol:

Consequently, we can't use it to determine the characteristics of
a standard Horcrux, which is merely an object (preferably a valuable,
magical object) in which a soul bit is encased. It may or may not
contain a protective curse, as the ring did. (I expect that the locket
and the cup will be similarly protected, but we just don't know.)

Snow:

I totally agree again that we cannot treat the Diary the same as the 
other Horcruxes that were made because of the living soul aspect.

Carol:

As
for Nagini, her closeness to Voldemort is the antithesis of Harry's
enmity, and Voldemort can possess her without killing or even paining
her (Harry seeing from the snake's pov felt no pain)--very different
from the pain Harry feels in his scar even before Voldie is restored
using his blood. So, yes, I agree. Harry is not like any of the
Horcruxes, including Nagini, who is a living being with a will of her
own whether or not she has a soul.

Snow:

Voldemort possessed Nagini not Harry! Harry sees what Voldemort sees, 
which is why when Voldemort possessed Nagini Harry saw the events 
through the snakes eyes. 

Nagini is a soulless creature, which is where Harry and `her' part 
company. Nagini cannot think for herself and has no outward feelings, 
which is a very big part of a soul; therefore Harry's uniqueness is 
quite solitary. 

Carol:
Certainly, he murdered Harry's mother though it was Harry he intended
to murder, and the soul bit created by Harry's murder that he intended
to encase. To me, that's clearly the reason that he wanted Lily to
step aside. The soul fragment detached by her death would be too
insignificant, in his view, for a Horcrux. (We're left to presume that
James's death in a duel or battle didn't qualify as a murder for the
purpose of creating a Horcrux, however unfair Voldemort's tactics, and
to wonder what became of the soul fragments from all those other
murders.

Snow:

So glad you brought this up since it is very relevant. What was the 
difference between Voldemort killing James that night and his killing 
Lily? James fought back and Lily didn't. Most every death that was 
used as a Horcrux was an unarmed victim, which is murder! But worse 
than that would be an unarmed victim that was begging not for them 
self but for someone else!


Carol snipped slightly:

But a split soul does not a
Horcrux make, or most of the Death Eaters and every other murderer in
the WW would have one. (We don't even know whether all killing results
in a split soul or what exactly a split soul means.) 

Snow:

If someone commits a hennas crime there soul may surely be split but 
without a spell and/or destination for that split to adhere to, it 
may just dissolve without a soul to keep it alive but only in the 
event that such an occurrence coincided almost simultaneously with 
there own death, which of course in this particular case it did. 

Carol:

Did it? Where is your evidence that it didn't say with the core soul?

Snow:

Evidence? I though we were speculating but I'll go with it
 To 
separate does mean to split or am I wrong again? If the soul split 
and the core goes with Voldemort where does the fragment caused by 
Lily's death go?

Carol:

Certainly he didn't deliberately detach the torn soul and encase it in
an object, which requires both an object (not a person) and a spell.

Snow:

Voldemort did not deliberately cause this event nor did he use a 
spell, which is why Harry is not a Horcrux. 

By the way, I think an object could be a living thing otherwise your 
Nagini theory is out as well. 

Carol:

and what about all the other murders he committed that weren't used
for Horcruxes?

Snow:

I have accounted for the majority that could possibly fit into the 
Lily scenario in the past and don't wish to rehash unless necessary. 

Carol:

We have, at the very least, Myrtle, three Riddles,
Hepzibah Smith, an Order member he killed personally, James if he
counts, and Lily. That's eight, more than enough for the five
Horcruxes he would have had before Godric's Hollow if DD's
calculations are correct. There are certainly many others considering
the number of Inferi in the cave.

Snow:

It depends on how you look at the murders. If you count all 
Voldemort's appointed murders by his deatheaters as his killing them 
then we will come to a draw on the subject. Myrtle was not killed by 
Voldemort anymore than Cedric was. 

Carol:

But my point is, how do you know that the Lily fragment hid itself
outside Voldemort's body? What was left of his soul was expelled from
his body, but how do you know that the Lily fragment didn't remain
with the core soul? 

Snow:

Because somehow, someway Harry did receive a bit of Voldemort, a 
connection that endowed him with equal powers (as per the prophecy) 
that night. The night that his mother saved him with her love by 
sacrificing herself and ensuring that Voldemort commit the most evil 
act of murder. 

Carol:

Can you cite canon that it didn't, or that it "hid
itself"? What would prevent that unencased fragment from going behind
the Veil or simply ceasing to exist if it were somehow detached from
the main soul with no container to encase it? Suppose that it is
merely detachable but not detached?

Snow:

Split is just that
split. This is not a-suppose or a what-if. 
Voldemort committed the most hennas of crimes and his soul was split 
by his actions. The point is that he disregarded those actions 
because he felt that he was already invincible and there would be no 
repercussion because he cannot die; he made too many Horcruxes before 
this. Voldemort gave Lily an opportunity initially but felt that he 
was covered by his Horcruxes and underestimated the result.   


Snow previously: 
> (3) "Encase? But how - ?"
> "There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" 498
> 
> So it takes a spell to purposely encase an object in something 
> according to the Slughorn-suggestions-on-how-to-make-a-Horcrux. I 
> think he is right when you are speaking of the conventional Horcrux 
> that has no soul of its own, which I believe he was since 
attempting 
> to use a living soul is inadvisable.

Carol:
I'm not sure what you mean here since the spell would be required
regardless of whether the object had a soul or not.

Snow:

This was my point, that Harry was not intentionally made a Horcrux. 

Carol:

I'd say that the only condition that was indisputably met is the
first, and LV has committed other murders that weren't made into
Horcruxes. We have not been told that a soul bit or bits were released
when Voldemort's soul was ripped from his body. Surely Dumbledore
would have raised the possibility when he was talking about Horcruxes
and Harry would say, "So that's how I got some of his powers!" if that
were the case. So not only is Harry not an official Horcrux, IMO he's
not even an unofficial one. Even if there's a soul bit in him, there's
no spell to encase it. He doesn't act like the only known living
Horcrux, Nagini (assuming that she is one). 

Snow:

I'm not sure what I can say this without reiterating everything I 
have already said, if you don't get where I'm coming from at this 
point, I'm at a loss for words. 

Carol:

All we know is that he has
some of Voldemort's powers, which could as easily have entered the cut
that would later become a scar through a drop of LV's magical blood as
through a detached soul fragment. 

Snow:

This is not just about obtaining some of Voldemort's powers through 
some means. This is also about a connection that was forged between 
them that happened when Harry received the scar. 

Carol:

IMO, if Harry had been possessed by
a soul bit, he'd have behaved a lot more like possessed!Ginny,
Quirrel!mort, or possessed!Nagini. Not a sign of it, and we know that
Lily's sacrifice has made him unpossessable, at least by Voldemort.

Snow:

Ginny is not Harry! Neither is Quirrelmort!  Both of them were being 
manipulated. 

Nagini is a reptile, no matter how you role the dice, she is not in 
the same league as a human with a soul. 

Harry is as unique as the wand that he holds. 

Carol:
Granted. He has some of Voldemort's *powers*, including Parseltongue,
a unique form of mutual Legilimency, and possibly possession, which I
expect to see in Book 7. But we're told that magic resides in the
blood (not a drop of magical blood in the Dursleys' veins,

Snow:

Not a drop? And yet Harry is most protected there beyond anything 
that Dumbledore could have ever have empowered for a protection, why?

Carol:

the whole
pureblood, half-blood, "Mudblood" concept, Harry's blood used to
restore Voldemort--note that Wormtail used the *bone* of Voldemort's
Muggle father but the *blood* of a powerful fellow wizard). I see no
evidence anywhere that powers reside in the soul. "A bit of himself"
is not necessarily a soul fragment.

Snow:

Would you consider `a bit of himself with a connection'? The scar was 
viewed by Dumbledore as a connection between them?  

Carol:
This is your interpretation. IMO, the scar resulted from the AK
bursting out of Harry's head. Granted, it serves both as a symbol that
Voldemort has "marked him as his equal" and as a conduit of
communication between them, but I think it's a stretch to imply that
Voldemort deliberately or otherwise put a bit of himself in Harry and
marked the bit with the scar.

Snow:

I didn't say it, Dumbledore did!


Carol:

IMO, the scar, which was originally a
cut on Harry's forehead, came before the "bit" entered Harry *by means
of* the cut. Certainly, Voldemort didn't deliberately put it there. I
think DD is condensing events a bit. Yes, the scar contains the
powers, but that doesn't mean that it contains a soul bit. All DD is
saying is that instead of being killed, Harry now has a scar, some of
Voldemort's powers, and a future as the Chosen One. Not a word about
being an accidental Horcrux or unofficial Horcrux. Powers, yes; soul
bit, unmentioned.

Snow:

Voldemort did not purposely put a scar on Harry's head, he did not 
intend on giving powers to the babe that was pronounced to destroy 
him, he did not foresee nor does he realize to this time, that Harry 
will live when he conquers him cause neither can live while the other 
survives. 

Carol snipped again:
So in your view, he might as well be a Horcrux. Wouldn't he have to
die for the soul bit to be destroyed, just as he would if he were an
official Horcrux? And in that case, how can he kill or destroy the
Horcruxless Voldemort?

Snow:

Harry is unique! He is a living soul that does possess a portion of 
Voldemort. Harry does not have to die but one of them does according 
to the prophecy, neither can live
 

Harry is not a Horcrux, so all rules that we know of to the typical 
Horcrux do not apply. The closest we come to a living Horcrux is the 
Diary, which is controlled by a memory of the most evil person on 
earth. Nagini is living but without a soul that can make her own 
decisions. Harry is unique and in the end anything can apply. 

Carol, whose scenario doesn't require any such complications

Snow, who never viewed JKR as uncomplicated