Views of Hermione (was:Re: witches of the world (was: Lavender vs Hermione)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 160481

Alla:
But if something like that was done to Trio, namely spying on them
and polijuicing them in the name of catching a murderer, a **real
murderer** with no real physical harm done, believe me, I would not
be angry for one second, so incredibly harmless I consider this
adventure and of course I cannot imagine Harry and Ron taking
drugged cupcakes, floating in the midair ( as Bruce said, that
should raise a bell even in WW and they are IMO too suspicious for
that, although cetainly hungry enough, hehe), but if they would, I
would find that incredibly funny and well executed too.

Magpie:
Funny, sure.  But it doesn't need to be totally correct for it to be 
funny.  I think that given what Harry's feeling in CoS, that if he'd 
been tricked into revealing things to two unknown students because 
he thought they were Ron and Hermione (who'd actually been drugged 
and were lying unconcious somewhere--let's say by cupcakes sitting 
with all the others at the party instead of sitting off separately) 
he'd have considered it a fairly serious crime against him. And I 
think Hermione would have had a conniption.  She doesn't have much 
of a sense of humor about things like that.  She gets very 
passionate about student rights when it's her own rights she's 
talking about.

Charles wrote:

> Marietta's actions by necessity figure into it whether you like it
> or not. Hermione put the jinx on the parchment in *self-defense*

Michael:
...and why should she not wish to disfigure a horrid sneak? 

Magpie:
There are many people for whom vengeance isn't a priority.  I don't 
mean that to sound superior, it just isn't the natural reaction of 
every human.  So there's plenty of reasons Hermione might have not 
wanted to disfigure a horrid sneak. Personally, I'd have wanted an 
actual defense in its place and would be less interested in 
retaliation. As eggplant puts it, the HP community has just always 
been made up of the manly men who aren't afraid to kill traitors and 
crack the skull of evil, and the effete wimps who won't shut up 
about compassion and human rights for bad guys.  The list would be a 
dull place without us all!

Michael:
She did this deliberately, knowing the consequences. This is life 
and death for members... where they could be put in Azkaban prison 
for their actions. She's the first one to realize this is not just a 
game, but it's real life.

She was always the smartest of them all.

Magpie:
That's not saying much of them all, because her sneak hex does 
absolutely nothing to counteract any of these dangers.  If not for 
circumstances nobody could have forseen the sneak hex would have 
simply been a comfort to Hermione as she left Hogwarts.

Michael:
I can't buy that H deliberately has harmed anyone. She is a genius, 
and that feeds her ego.

Magpie:
I don't get how one can not deliberately harm anyone by casting a 
deliberately harming hex.  If I gave you something that caused you 
to break out in oozing pustules all over your face and said, "But 
where have I harmed anyone?" I'd imagine you'd think I was crazy.  I 
understand supporting Hermione's doing that to Marietta, but not 
pretending nothing happened. 

Eric:
C.S. Lewish said that he would rather be ruled by tyrants than by 
moral busybodies, because (paraphrased) the tyrant's greed may be 
satiated at some point, but those who torture for the benefit of the 
victim will do so forever, since they have the approval of their own 
consciences and are sure that in the long run, their victims will 
thank them. 

Magpie:
Good connection--and yes, although Hermione isn't an evil character 
it seems like JKR has made this a major part of her personality.  
She mostly plays it up for the adolescent girl overenthusiasm angle, 
but given Hermione's power and the lack of anyone ever there to 
control her, plus the constant real feeling of evil to be fought, of 
course she *could* be a terror. I don't think she's going to be, but 
it seems like a valid thing to talk about. So far she's been 
shielded from retalliation, but we've heard about simmering anger at 
her from several places already.  Anger that she herself doesn't 
take seriously.

Davida:
If Hermoine hadn't put that hex or curse on that list then everybody
that was apart of DA would have been in DD office. I believe Hermoine
did the right thing,and Marietta suffered the consequences for it.

Magpie:
But isn't the only reason everyone in the DA wasn't in DD's office 
the fact that *Dobby* warned them in time for some of them to get 
away?  It had nothing to do with Hermione's hex on Marietta.  The 
parchment, iirc, simply gave Umbridge a list of everyone in the 
group, making sure nobody got too far away.

Amiable Dorsai:
Odd, what I see is that a girl whose first instincts are to raise the
downtrodden and protect the innocent, who has been fighting Voldemort
from her first year as a Hogwarts student, and who has regularly put
her own life on the line to defend others, has suddenly, over this
incident, been nominated for the "Girl Most Likely to go Dark" slot 
in the Hogwarts yearbook. It seems like a bit of a stretch, to me.

Magpie:
I think there's plenty of room left in that slot next to Barty 
Crouch, Sr. :-)

Tesha:
You totally missed my point, Magpie - I understated the scene - you
overstated the scene... I think you're simply biased against the
character for reasons that seem to remain your own. I say it is 
simply our points of view that differ. I will always try to see the 
best in JKR's good characters - and even the ones she paints in grey.

Magpie:
But your thinking I'm biased against the character for reasons that 
seem to remain my own doesn't necessarily matter. It doesn't explain 
how exactly I'm overstating the scene. It's not like I 
said, "Hermione gives Crabbe and Goyle long-term brain-damage and 
steals Potions ingredients needed to help the sick and then beats a 
confession out of Malfoy."  To me I described the plan accurately.  
The line about her being better than the sociopathic murderer was a 
comment on how comparing someone to Voldemort didn't say much about 
how good they are.  I don't see what biases I have or don't have 
against the character, or the biases you have in favor of the 
character, change what happened in the text.  You can love a 
character and still describe his/her actions plainly and consider 
them wrong.  Even when people have extremely opposite reactions to a 
character they can find some common ground in what they actually did 
as backed up by the text. 

Tesha:
Draco, at least in the early books, would never openly confront his
enemies. He uses his father and his teacher and his 2 body guards to
hide behind. You can even see in the later books that he still does
not want to face being singly responsible for anything. He uses other
people to achieve his goal.

Magpie:
What does whether or not a character is considered to want to be 
singly responsible for things have to do with Carol's question about 
his right to privacy? 

Tesha:
and doesn't he make one of his guards polyjuice into a girl to 
protect the secrecy of a certain door?

Magpie:
Crabbe and Goyle's use of the girls' bodies violates the privacy of 
the girls whose bodies are being used, just as Crabbe and Goyle's 
bodies were violated. Since they're not taking over the girl's lives 
to learn secrets about anyone no one's privacy is being invaded the 
way Draco's was. But I'm not sure how the Slytherin's own use of 
Polyjuice four years later has to do with the question.

Tesha:
1. My husband's ex is a fine person - the point I was trying to make
albeit badly is - she can take a few boxes of tooth picks and call
them a 2x4.

Magpie:
And what does that mean with regards to Hermione, exactly?  Because 
it seems like we're all just looking at actual scenes-the toothpicks-
-and describing how we see them.  We all build different 2x4's out 
of them--some of us see Hermione as having a troubling self-
righteous ruthless streak and others of us see her as independent 
and brave. But we can still talk about the toothpicks on common 
ground, like whether the sneak hex is a self-defense or a 
retalliation toothpick. It doesn't all have to come down to whether 
the character is good or bad in some fundamental way. If Hermione's 
motivations are discussed, it's got to be backed up by what we can 
deduce from what happens in canon.

Tesha:
2. Did you ever think that you just know more about Hermione than you
do many of the other characters? 

Magpie:
Not sure what you mean here.  Are you suggesting that there's stuff 
going on with Hermione off-screen that changes her character?  
Because I think in fiction we're supposed to base our understanding 
of the character on what we see. I don't think I know Hermione 
particularly better or worse than other characters--many points of 
her personality have been hammered on consistently. 

Tesha:
3. My daughter would probably behave like Hermione if we were in the
same circumstance, right down to the worst, and I would love and
support her in it all. Oh, I'd scowl and rant and rave a bit, but I'd
be proud my little kid would be so resourceful and independent.

Magpie:
But occasionally you'd come up against the parent of another child, 
perhaps one that had been punished by her, and that mother might see 
her as something other than resourceful and independent. Maybe they 
think they're the one with the great kid. Vernon Dursley's proud of 
Dudley's temper tantrums over his presents.

Tesha:
4. I do believe you are taking characters, who are in the case we
started with 12 years old, and asking them to behave as adults.

Magpie:
I don't see how analyzing the actions a 13 year old has actually 
done is asking her to behave like an adult. There doesn't seem to be 
a problem judging Hermione's actions as long as they reflect well on 
her, so what's wrong with seeing the opposite?  If I say Draco's 
actions as part of the Inquisitor Squad were am I expecting him to 
act like an adult? Hermione, in particular, has done things that go 
beyond what many adults will do in their lifetime--sometimes she's 
taking on adults and winning.  Who knows what she'll have done by 
the time she's officially an adult.

Tesha:
5. I also believe that you are taking apart story lines to prove your
points. Hermione had to make the polijuice potion because JKR needed
an excuse for the 3 to become familiar with the bathroom where 2 
would later enter the CoS.

Magpie:
I believe everyone has agreed on how the incident fits into the 
plot.  But Hermione's character is obviously still written to fit 
around the plot points. JKR has given Hermione a character 
motivation to make the plot point happen.  If she's only made the 
Polyjuice to show us the bathroom so can't be held responsible for 
her actions, then she can't also get points for being resourceful 
and independent.  

Tesha:
I will always try to see the best in JKR's good characters - and 
even the ones she paints in grey.

Magpie:
So are you saying that certain characters are just looked at 
different than others?  If the character is perceived as good or 
grey we should only see the best in them and if they're not good or 
grey we don't do that?  Your passing mentions of Draco don't seem 
too limited to seeing only the best in him.  

-m