Views of Hermione./Bad guys, good guys

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 160688

> > Alla:
>
> > I have a luxury of wishing bad guys to be punished because I am
> > convinced of their guilt - there is not a doubt in my mind that
> > Marietta is a traitor and still I think that executions of
Hermione
> > good intentions could have been better, as many people said.
> >
> > What I am arguing vehemently against is discarding hermione good
> > intentions and the thought that Marietta should have been
allowed to
> > go scott free. She did a horrible deed, I do not think that she
> > should have been allowed to merrily continue her studies as if
she
> > did not do anything wrong.
> >
> > Because to me it is crystal clear that she did.
> >
>
> Pippin:
> Thanks for this, it makes your position much clearer to me. What
> you want, then, is that the good guys should have the luxury of
> assuming that their good intentions and high ideals will keep them
> from messing up too badly? And of assuming that those whose
> intentions are not so good and whose ideals are not so noble
> are capable of the absolute worst and so should be dealt with
> ruthlessly?

Alla:

I recently discussed with someone off list the joys and
misunderstandings of the external and internal analysis of the story
and how often we fall into misunderstandings when we mix two ( I
certainly do that often), so not what you just said at all.

The post I responded was looking at the story ( sort of) from
outsider of the story ( as I understood it, hopefully) and I
responded from outside as well.

So, to what you said - **Good guys** in the books certainly should
not have a luxury of making assumptions that good ideas would keep
them from messing up. They should at least try to behave as good
guys do, etc, etc. but as a reader I certainly will have a luxury to
evaluate good guys as I see them and bad guys as I see them and you
bet, that I will cut more slack to the character whom I see as
having good intentions, even if I see this character messing up in
process.

But I think most importantly is that I think that just when one
watches horror movies to let the emotions run free, etc( I don't, I
am too easily scared), I can have a pleasure of wishing bad guys (
as I see them) to die without waiting for them to be tried in court.


Pippin:

> I am glad to know you don't think this works in the real world.
> A lot of people do, you know, and I would hate to think that JKR
is
> encouraging them. More to the point, I think that Hermione, and
> Harry to a lesser extent, have indeed fallen prey to this form of
> magical thinking. I don't believe that JKR means to make it
> work for them.

Alla:
What does not work in RL world, Pippin? That people should be deemed
guilty without the day in court? That surely does not and should not
or do you mean something else?

But in fiction, when author does not write the story where full due
process in catching the bad guy is required, I am certainly willing
to accept short hand for that.


Pippin:
> But if you do think it works, then it explains why you think
> Snape must be a bad guy, and why Draco, despite his incapacity,
> must be considered murderous, and why Dumbledore was so
> wrong not to trust in Sirius's high ideals and good intentions
> rather than in the Dursleys and the blood protection.

Alla:

Huh? What explains why I think this way? I think that Snape is a bad
guy because I see the events in the book which tell me that he is a
bad guy.

Ugh, how to put it? I do not need a fictional judge to tell me that
Snape is an abuser and murderer. As a reader I already have an
opinion about that based on what I have read. If JKR thinks
otherwise, I will not lose sleep over that, I will just discover
that I am wrong, that is all. But for now that is the opinion that I
have about fictional character and because of that I want this
character to be punished severely. I do not think that this is
strange desire to have bad guys punished.

And of course same thing is with Draco and Dumbledore. I certainly
do not want them to suffer that much as I want with Snape, since
especially Dumbledore already paid the ultimate price, but I simply
think that they committed the big wrongs ( Draco committed a crime
and Dumbledore - well, big mistake, huge, the way I see it) and as a
reader I want to have emotional satisfaction of seeing them at least
realising what they did wrong.


ETA.

Probably the good analogy would be Voldemort's fate. You are not 
expecting Voldemort to be tried by Wizengamot, right?

Although in RL we would certainly want the biggest evil overlord to 
be tried in court.

We just want him dead ( Although I certainly do not want to 
generalise, maybe some people do want Voldemort to be tried in court 
with defense and prosecution)

Snape to me is just as evil as Voldemort, regardless by the way 
whether he is on Dumbledore's side or not, although if he is, he is 
just everyday evil, nothing more.

That is why I already know all that I need to know to decide for 
myself what kind of  character he is and I know what I want to 
happen to him as **fictional** bad guy as I see him.

Does that make it clearer?


Pippin:
> I think JKR means to show us that high ideals and good
> intentions, though they are good in themselves, do not
> substitute for ability, nor do they excuse people from
> responsibility for the consequences of their actions which
> could reasonably be foreseen. And the consequence
> of unfairness is more unfairness, as Hermione should know.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Excuse of the responsibility? Of course not, but neither do I think
that JKR means to show that good intentions means nothing and that
the girl who is fighting against Voldemort should be cut some slack
even if the executions could be better, IMO.


Pippin:
> If she wants justice, then she needs not only to be as critical
> of her friends as she is of her enemies, (she's got that part!)
> she has to be as forgiving of her enemies as she is of her
> friends. Nothing less. Of course that's not as much fun as
> beating the snot out of bad guys. Maybe that's why no matter
> how many bad guys get the snot beat out of them, justice still
> seems so very far away?

Alla:

Just one book away :) and I don't know about you, but I am certainly
quite happy with the justice Draco got so far - I bet little shmack
will not be happy with the life in the DE bootcamp or on the run
with Snape, or whenever he went.

I expect Dursleys to suffer more at the beginning of book 7, you may
not consider it justice, but I certainly do and of course too bad I
cannot be sure what will Snape get, but I am keeping my fingers
crossed that I will get to see at least short scene of Snape at
Harry's mercy. We shall see, I suppose>

Alla, whose favorite Snape punishment for today is life in Azkaban,
death will be only too easy, but who can change her mind tomorrow.