TBAY: BlackWidower!Snape retuned (long)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 160762

SSSusan:
> > But perhaps, what you're [Dungrollin] saying here...
> > 
> Snape was naive in the same way that Regulus and Draco were. If 
> Draco was unable to kill DD, and Draco didn't even *like* DD, 
> and fully knew that Voldy would kill him for his failure, it's not 
> impossible that Snape found he couldn't betray Regulus, if he 
> were a good friend. 
> > 
> > ...is the other real possibility.  That being both naive and 
> > increasingly aware of Voldemort's "psycho-ness," making friends 
> with other DEs seemed necessary.
 
Dungrollin:
> Yeah, exactly. Voldy's the great leader, but he's nobody's friend, 
> and once you've signed up to being a DE you *really* need friends, 
> because it's not certain that Voldy will look out for you. It's 
> even possible that a small mistake at which he takes offence could 
> get you killed.

SSSusan:
THAT'S definitely all true; I can see more what you're saying.  
Life's going to be hard; this guy's scary as hell; I need people 
around me who understand!


Dung:
> Oh, I see what you mean. Actually, I could have left it a lot 
> vaguer, but thought I'd bash some details together for fun. It's 
> only really necessary that Voldy wants to punish Snape and kills 
> his wife and child because of the prophecy. But that means Snape 
> should have defied Voldy three times, so i put the helping Regulus 
> in before the wife and child dying. 

SSSusan:
Heh.  I get it now.  This isn't an integral detail; you're just 
trying to get to "thrice defied" and this is one way of getting there 
for Snapey.


Dung again:
> Right, I think I'm with you now: when Regulus comes to Snape for 
> help, or to say goodbye, Snape is already (at least, under this 
> theory) defying Voldy by not telling him about his wife and 
> expected child. You'd expect him to choose his own child over 
> Voldy, wouldn't you? I can understand you being less sure about 
> Regulus.

SSSusan:
YES, that's exactly what I'd expect.  But then you proposed this:

> Look at it this way, Snape's at home, someone bangs on the door, 
> it's Reg. He says "Oh my god I don't have time to explain, I need 
> some floo powder right now!"
> Snape says "What what what? What's up, let me help."
> Reg says "No, it's too dangerous, if they even know I came here 
> you'll be dead, or worse." (<-hyperbole again)
> Snape says "Come off it Reggie, you're hysterical! Tell me, what's 
> up?"
> Reg says "I'm leaving the Death Eaters. The Dark Lord wants me 
> dead."
> Snape says "£*$@!! How far behind you are they?"
> Reg says "Close. Just give me some floo powder and say you haven't 
> seen me since Monday."
> 
> I'm not suggesting that Snape carefully plans something cunning to 
> go behind Voldy's back, just that in the heat of the moment, 
> Regulus is his friend, and he can't coldy turn him in. Does that 
> make sense? 

SSSusan:
LOL!!  This makes much more sense now.  You're not talking about a 
Snape who sits down in a quiet moment, contemplating what to do and 
setting himself a course of "siding" with Regulus.  Rather, you're 
talking about the possibility of an unexpected emergency appearance 
and Snape's unthinkingly helping someone whose position he can most 
certainly understand.

I wonder why it is I can actually see it happening with Snape more 
than I can with Lucius?  That I can imagine a real *friendship* 
between Snape and someone much more easily than I can imagine a real 
*friendship* between Lucius and someone.


> > SSSusan:
> > Well, in my defense, I don't think I was making the assumption 
> > that "bad guy = bad friend."  I was considering what we know of 
> > Lucius himself and thinking of *him* as a bad friend.  In all 
> > his "slipperiness," he seems to be one who is pretty determinedly 
> out for himself.  

> Dung:
> Remember Lucius was younger, too. But unless I'm forgetting 
> something, I don't think we have any canon for Lucius selling out 
> his mates, do we? We have him claiming to have been Imperius'd 
> after Voldy fell, but loads of them did that (very sensible too, 
> IMO); and we have him using the diary when he thought that Voldy 
> was finished, but that's denying Voldemort, not his DE *friends*. 
> Jog my memory, would you? Peter screwed over his *friends*.

SSSusan:
Fair 'nuff.  I believe I have canon evidence for a Lucius who is 
careful about watching his back and who is good at presenting 
different masks to different people, but I also am not thinking of 
any friend-screwing-over episodes.  (Unless you consider Voldy his 
friend and Lucius' *not* going off searching for him after GH as 
screwing a friend.  But, nah, I'm sure Lucius decidedly did not think 
of Voldy as "friend.")


> > SSSusan:
> > Yes, now this I can reconcile with my image of Lucius.  It would 
> > be about alliances for the sake of self-preservation.  I can see 
> > that he might see that as quite beneficial.  But still, I would 
> > ask whether he would actually RISK anything for the sake of one 
> > of those "friends" (better read as allies, in my view)?  Perhaps 
> > he would, and I'm not being fair to Lucius.
 
Dung:
> Yeah, ok, you can say 'allies' rather than 'friends', but since 
> Narcissa uses the word 'friend', forgive me if I'm sticking to that 
> <g>. 

SSSusan:
Again, fair 'nuff.  You stick to your definition; I'll stick to 
mine.  OTOH, that's Narcissa talking, not Lucius. <g>  

I guess I'm thinking of "friends" along the lines of Sirius' "I would 
rather have died, DIED than betrayed my friends!"  Less deep-seated 
bonds [which is what I'm (fairly or unfairly!) envisioning with 
Lucius] I'd reserve for the "allies" term.


> > SSSusan:
> > Wow.  Am I movie contaminated?  I don't see Lucius as being non-
> > ratlike.  Again, I see him as calculating.  HOW can he get out of 
> > this mess [the time of Voldy's downfall] while still retaining as 
> > much positive as possible? <snip> I see him as the supreme role-
> > player and "I take care of myself first but without losing 
> > position with anyone by virtue of my slipperiness."
 
Dung:
> It doesn't have to be much of a risk for Lucius to speak out on 
> behalf of Snape, all he's really risking is that Voldy tells him to 
> shut up, and kills Snape anyway, it just would have taken some guts 
> to do. 

SSSusan:
This is an excellent point.  Lucius doesn't really *lose* anything in 
the attempt to stick up for Snape somewhat, unless Voldy were likely 
to get hyper-annoyed with Lucius for having done it.  But as you 
point out, we do have evidence of Voldy's putting up with a bit of 
this kind of attempt at persuasion in Wormtail's suggestion that 
Voldy not use Harry in the rebirthing potion.  


Dung:
> Snape would be a good investment for Lucius (with the benefit of 
> hindsight, I think we can agree that Snape turned out to be a 
> capable wizard, and I don't think Lucius is too stupid to forsee 
> that), if he doesn't act, or he fails to convince Voldy to spare 
> Snape, he's lost a friend or ally; if he does manage to convince 
> Voldy to spare Snape, Snape owes him one, or he's paid back the one 
> he owes Snape, and cemented their looking out for each other thing 
> (why don't you want to call that 'friendship'?)

SSSusan:
Heh.  See above.  Again, it's about terms like "investment" and "owes 
him one" which make me think about alliances, not friendship. <g>  
All of what you've said here makes perfect sense to me; it fits with 
the kind of Lucius I have in my mind's eye:  the calculating, 
scheming, I'm-the-one-holding-the-cards kind of slimeball.  Not that 
I'm opinionated about Lucius or anything you understand. ;-)


> > SSSusan:
> > Yep.  And it would give Harry a LOT to think about re: Snape... 
> > presumably while he looks down upon his DEAD body, with yet one 
> > more thing to feel guilty about. ;-)
 
Dung:
> Aaaaargh, noooooooooooo! I *really* don't want Snape to die. I 
> could live with him getting time in Azkaban for the DD incident 
> (even if there were extenuating circumstances, it's still 
> presumably illegal in the WW to kill your boss, though helping to 
> bring Voldy down might mitigate the sentence a bit), but I *really* 
> don't want him to die. It's funny, it's the only real *hope* that I 
> have for book 7. All the theories can turn out wrong, Harry can 
> live or die (am I the *only* person on the list who really doesn't 
> mind either way?) and I won't be too bothered (unless of course the 
> quality of book 7 is poor). I just want Snape to survive, that's 
> all. 

SSSusan:
Interesting!  This I did not realize about you.  Well, I knew you'd 
be peeved if the quality of book 7 were poor <g>, but not about your 
hope for Snape's survival.  

Now, just out of curiosity, if you and I happen to be (gasp!) 
incorrect in our belief in DDM!Snape, if, in fact, Snape turns out to 
be (moan) ESE!Snape, would you still feel that you want Snape to 
live?  

Siriusly Snapey Susan