witches of the world (was: Lavender vs Hermione)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 160769

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > ...the reason I like Narcissa is because of her actions in      
> > Spinner's End.  To grab Becca's (I believe) description of       
> > Molly, Narcissa is a lion when it comes to her child (and       
> > possibly husband).  So I see something to admire there.

> >>Phoenixgod2000:
> Why oh why am I forced to defend people I dislike?

Betsy Hp:
Hee! I'd insert a Ginny joke but I see you've cleverly covered that 
base. <eg>

> >>Phoenixgod2000:
> Narcissa, as much as I love the fandom version is not all that 
> admirable in canon. Sneaking around to a friend of yours to make 
> sure he completes the assassination  your son was tasked to do    
> isn't exactly the act of a 'lion'. its the act of a weasel to      
> afraid to do something truly brave and do something proactive.    
> there isn't a reason in the world that Narcissa couldn't have     
> taken up Draco and fled to america or australia or something if    
> she was so worried about his life.

Betsy Hp:
Well, (a) you're assuming someone *can* easily flee from Voldemort's 
wrath, which ignores all the canon speaking towards the severely 
shortened life-expectency of anyone on the  "Must kill now" list 
Voldemort keeps on his bedside table (right next to the tin of 
Nagini's favorite snake treats).  

And (b) I think you're selling short the danger inherent in going to 
a *Death Eater* for help in undermining a plan Voldemort has cooked 
up.  I mean, we in HPfGUs land may have our theories, but in 
Potterverse, as far as Narcissa is concerned, Snape is as gung-ho 
about Voldemort as her husband is.  (Everyone, please note the 
deliberate ambivalence I stuck into the previous sentence <g>.) 

As far as we've seen the Death Eaters are quite willing to work 
against each other to vie for a stronger position.  And Narcissa is 
hoping that Snape is high enough in the pecking order to actually 
talk Voldemort out of his plan.  So I do attribute a large amount of 
bravery and gumption to Narcissa for just *approaching* Snape. 

> >>Phoenixgod2000:
> <snip> 
> She could have asked Snape for anything as that third part of the 
> unbreakable vow and the fact that she still asked for the 
> assassination of Dumbledore speaks volumes about her actual 
> sympathies.

Betsy Hp:
I will give you that.  In fact, I suspected from my first reading of 
that scene that a bonus JKR saw in the third part of the vow is it 
does undermine the sympathy a worried mother could get from the 
readers.  So I don't deny that Narcissa seems very comfortable with 
the idea of Dumbledore being murdered.

> >>Phoenixgod2000: 
> Molly on the other hand has joined, along with her husband and     
> most of her children, a fight against a terrorist leader.  Her    
> sons could die. Her husband could die.  She could die.  Her       
> brothers did die. But she joined because it was the right thing to 
> do.

Betsy Hp:
Okay, yes Molly is on the correct political side of the fence.  
She's not evil by any stretch.  Of course, it's not a hard place for 
her to be.  As you point out, her family is there, so it's not like 
she's had to go against the tide to get to this side.

And yes, she's lost family members.  So has Narcissa.  In fact, her 
husband is sitting in jail at the moment, and her son is in 
immediate danger.  So it's not like Molly has the corner on 
suffering for her cause.

> >>Phoenixgod2000:
> Thats real bravery and something Narcissa couldn't understand with 
> all the magic in the world.

Betsy Hp:
I don't get that.  How do you see Narcissa as being in a safer place 
than Molly?  I mean, both women are involved in the war, just on 
different sides.  Either one could lose family members.  Either one 
could die themselves.  And in fact, by defying Voldemort to safe-
guard her son, Narcissa has *actively* put her life at risk.

Not that I could say Molly wouldn't actively risk her life to save 
one of her children, just, she hasn't had an opportunity yet.  So 
there's nothing there to off-set all of her damn whining.  (And 
undermining of her children's egos and the marginalizing of Arthur's 
place in the family... etc., etc., And yes, this is IMO, of course 
and I do realize that folks see Molly as best mother ever...)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > With Pansy... I agree with Magpie's thing about Pansy's 
> > vulnerability.  (Unlike Hermione: smart *and* pretty *and* above 
> > feeling the need to be pretty *and* popluar with all the cool    
> > boys *and* above the need to be popular with all the cool boys   
> > *and* so above being girly with the girls... -- blech.)

> >>Phoenixgod2000: 
> I actually agree with you about this except for the pretty thing. 
> Being able to doll up for one evening does not a beauty make. and 
> people were, after all surprised that she looked as good as she    
> did, which implies to me that she isn't someone who is attractive 
> on a day to day basis.

Betsy Hp:
I'd agree except, Hermione had no problem at all rustling up a date 
for Slughorn's party.  A date who had to fit a pretty strict 
requirement (enrage Ron) and a date who had a rather high opinion of 
himself.  I don't think McLaggen would care to have a frump on his 
arm.

Honestly I think the GoF Yule Ball moment was supposed to usher in 
Hermione's graceful (and zit free <eg>) transition from puberty to 
young womanhood.  Remove the braces (or shrink the teeth) and voila: 
classic British beauty for all the boys to gag over.  Though of 
course Hermione is "above" all that and so only uses her powers for 
good (enraging Ron).

So I'm sticking with pretty but above being pretty.  

> >>Phoenixgod2000:
> <snip>
> I really don't like Hermione, but I would take her in a serious    
> situation over anything other female student in hogwarts every day 
> of the week and twice on Sundays.

Betsy Hp:
Since JKR is the author, I'm forced (grumbling) to agree.  Though 
I'd say that Hermione has actually shown herself to be more of an 
impairment to Harry lately than an asset.  I know it's controversial 
but as far as I'm concerned Hermione did more to ruin the DA than 
anything.  Plus, she's developed quite an enemies list that I'm 
afraid may cross over to Harry.  (Heaven help him if he needs help 
from Ravenclaws.)

I think if she's kept on a tight leash, Hermione can be an asset, 
but she's got her boys so convinced of her superiority I'm not sure 
they'd provide the guidance she so desperately needs.  

I don't know though... JKR might surprise me.  She did with Draco 
after all. 

> Phoenixgod2000, who has finally found a situation where he will 
> defend Hermioe and Molly.  Luckily no such situation could ever 
> possibly come up for Ginny. 
> <shivers slightly as a soul-draining wind swiftly begins to blow>

Betsy Hp:
Too good to snip! <g>

Betsy Hp (running off to deal with the deluge of tricker-treaters 
<BG>)