What Came First: Task or Cabinet? - A tale of two Dracos LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 157705

> > Alla:
> 
> > I am just not understanding how Draco wanting to be a man 
dissappears
> > from "cabinet came first" addition to the story. It is not like 
we
> > can say for sure what **exactly** Draco views as being a man, no?
> 
> Magpie:
> It's not up to us to say what Draco views as being a man.  The 
story has set 
> up the situation to which Draco is reacting--so it's telling us 
what it 
> means.  Sure you can still do a "Draco wants to be a man" story if 
he goes 
> to Voldmort first, but you have to write that story and that's 
going to 
> define the context in which he's becoming a man, and give him the 
situation 
> he's reacting to.  <snip> 

Alla:

Mmmm, I was responding to your statement ( or the way I understood 
it) that if Draco went to Voldemort that means that he was being a 
child asking grown ups to do a job for him and what I am saying is 
that we do not know what is in Draco's head and maybe he was viewing 
offering such smart plan to Voldemort as being a man.


Magpie:
> Also, as an aside, the Cabinet First story has Draco *beginning* 
the story 
> by committing the act that now is the big climax--and it gives it 
a 
> different kind of weight as well.  If Draco goes to Voldemort and 
gives him 
> the secret way into Hogwarts, it's done.  His personal fixing of 
the cabinet 
> and being the one to do it is redundant.
<SNIP>


Alla:

Aha. **Now** we are talking. Finally I am beginning to understand 
how "cabinet comes first" indeed interferes with the heart of the 
story which I am indeed buying. See, for the longest time I could 
not comprehend what profound effect the addition of the cabinet 
comes first does and thank you for finally pointing that. Indeed it 
does seem more than technical addition.


Magpie:
  In this story it's fine, because 
> the Cabinet plot is simply Draco's way of doing the job that 
Voldemort gave 
> him to do any way he could.  If the doorway into Hogwarts is so 
valuable to 
> LV himself because it gives him a strategic evil victory, then 
Draco's 
> already handed it to him by telling him about it.  Just as Snape's 
telling 
> LV about the prophecy is enough to implicate him in LV's plot to 
kill Harry.

Alla:
Sorry, lost me again, especially lost me with the analogy to Snape. 
Yeah, telling LV about prophecy to me is more than enough to 
implicate Snape in Potters murders, without Snape that would not 
have ever started.

Draco telling LV about entrance to Hogwarts **would be** enough to 
me to implicate him, yes. But I see how that would be anticlimatic 
story wise, heeee.


Magpie: 
> So in the Cabinet First plot we've got two transformation stories, 
one 
> entirely off-page. You've got the one where Draco starts out with 
all the 
> motivation that gets him to Voldemort--an incredibly huge thing 
for this 
> character to do--this isn't going to Filch to snitch.  

Alla:

Nah, sorry not buying. Draco is supposedly growing up with those 
guys, they are his dad's palls and why is it supposed to be a huge 
thing for his character to do? I mean, sure, Voldemort is sort of 
one step up, but DE circles is Draco's circles IMO.

And Greyback is family friend or as Betsy said we are now doubting 
this piece of canon? If I may ask why? Because Draco cannot really 
be friends with this erm... person? Just joking, but do want to know 
if you also think that this is untrue.


Magpie:
That's a lot of steam 
> to get him in front of the guy. 

Alla:

As I said I don't think so - just to go and approach his daddy's 
boss, that's all. :)

Magpie:
 But then Voldemort says "Great plan--you 
> fix it, and kill DD too!"
<SNIP>

Alla:

Heeee.



Magpie:
> If Draco was never expecting he'd have to fix the cabinet or kill 
anyone, 
> then there was a bit of an "Oh s*** moment for him when Voldmort 
said "You 
> do it and kill DD."  It suggests this is not something Draco 
wanted.  By the 
> beginning of the book that we get, he's convinced himself this 
task is a 
> good thing, a way to prove himself.  

Alla:

Wait, wait you are contradicting yourself, I think. In your story if 
Draco was never expecting that he'd have to to kill anybody or fix 
cabinet, he would have been surprised to find out that this is not 
what he wanted, correct? But in canon, just as you said Draco is 
bragging about the task, he is happy, so doesn't it suggest that *Oh 
sh*t moment* had not happened yet ,meaning that it is likely that 
Draco approached Voldemort? MY head sooooo hurts again :)


Magpie:
So we're not just talking about some 
> practical details taking place off stage to explain whether Draco 
took the 
> bus to see LV or LV came over for dinner, we're talking about a 
> transformation beat or sequence where Draco goes from "Ha ha, I'll 
show that 
> Harry Potter.  I'll give Voldemort this plan and he'll use it 
against Harry 
> without my having to do anything!"  to "I've been given a 
dangerous murder 
> mission and it is a chance for glory that Voldemort has given me."

Alla:

And why this transformation could not have happened? Say Draco 
brought that plan, Voldemort gives him this mission and Draco 
evaluated  his glory and got more happier in progress?


Magpie: 
> So Draco has now either decided it is a good thing he was given 
this task 
> when he originally didn't want it, or he considers it a good thing 
from the 
> moment LV tells it to him.  That fits more what we see.  The task 
from 
> Voldemort seems to always be presented as a good thing from 
Draco's pov for 
> the first few chapters of the book.

Alla:

Erm... if Draco brings plan to Voldemort that does not mean 
necessarily that Draco does not want to kill DD, IMO. That means 
that Draco did not **think** about killing DD, and if he did he may 
have embraced that right away, so voldemort puts this thought in 
Draco's head and Draco indeed thinks it is a very good thing. Where 
is contradiction of this speculation with canon?


Magpie: 
><SNIP> In terms of character logic, Draco should 
> begin the book already having had a triumph with his motivation 
intact 

Alla:

Yeah, and he does sort of has this triumph on the train, no?

> Betsy Hp:
> Actually, I'd say it's very much *not* in character for Draco to 
> seek out Voldemort.  He's never taken such an active role in the 
> past.  Never.  He prefers to make up clever songs, or create silly 
> buttons than get actively involved.

Alla:

He also rather actively seeks Buckbeak death and Hagrid being fired, 
but of course the stakes are raising with every book and Draco did 
not have a chance to seek anything of that caliber, there is always 
a first time. I just don't see the passivity as his character trait, 
IMO.


>> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> But the entire theme of Draco's story in HBP is that he feels he 
> *has no choice*.  Draco says this time and again. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

I don't seem to remember that he says that on the train at all. 
Seems perfectly happy to me with the choice to enter LV service, 
IMHO.

Yes, that becomes his theme, or I would rephrase it as "took in his 
mouth more than he could chew" theme.

Betsy Hp:
> The canon has this rather elegant story where a naive child is 
> chosen by Evil to do an evil deed.  The child did not choose to 
> become evil, but Evil has selected him and the child cannot choose 
> differently.  Or at least, so Evil would have the child believe.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Does Draco mindset on the train not counts **at all*? Yes, he just 
does not know that he never had the way out, but as far as I am 
concerned whether he approached Voldemort or Voldemort approached 
him ( and yes, I am much in favor of Voldemort choosing him), Draco 
made a choice of evil by himself, hopefully he saw where it leads, 
hopefully.

Betsy Hp:
> Steve's version has it that the child has *already chosen*.  So 
> Dumbledore's offer, Good's offer, is empty.  Draco cannot choose 
> *against* Evil because he's already chosen *for* it. 

Alla:

He sounded as if he already chosen on the train to me. That is 
another thing where I don't see much difference - in both stories 
Draco's mindset has to change IMO.


 > Betsy Hp (who really does find that the "cabinet first" people 
are 
> pretty down on Draco on a whole and is suspicious that this is big 
> motivation behind the theory)
>

Alla:

Mmmmm, as long as theory is convincing, does it really matter what 
the motivation behind it? As long as canon or canon based 
speculation to spin the theory is there? Would the theory become 
less valid if this **is** indeed the motivation behind it?

I am not sure I follow. But look, here you have me, who um... as you 
know very harsh on Draco, who in fact SO harsh on Draco  that I had 
not an **ounce** of sympathy for his situation in HBP?

As far as I was concerned all that Draco got he deserved - maybe, 
just maybe that would teach him to stop giving death threats, 
stopped campaining to get innocent animals killed, stop 
participating in assasinations where he almost killed two people.

Hopefully, he saw what does it mean to kill person face to face, 
hopefully it taught him something.

What am I getting it? As I said, I don't have tender feelings 
towards Draco, **but** for various reasons I am much more in 
Magpie's camp than Steve's. I want to say that I am in your camp 
too, but you sress the victim aspect of Draco's situation way too 
much for my agreement, while Magpie acknowledged Draco's arrogance 
and happiness on the train, so um... yeah, I will call it **Magpie 
camp**, sorry Betsy :)

What I am saying is that your **suspicion** may not turn out to be 
true, since Carol and Steve seem to go much easier on Draco than me, 
you know? :)

What I am saying is two things - I find the theory plausible and not 
always see dramatic difference on the outcome, although from 
Magpie's latest post I may have started too. 

JMO,

Alla