Cabinet FIRST! One last time.

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 157832

---  "Sydney" <sydpad at ...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
> 
> > In the /reality/ of the theory, Draco simply makes 
> > it known through a set of inconsequential circumstances 
> > (condensed version) that he knows a secret way into 
> > Hogwarts. Once that information reachs Voldemort, by 
> > whatever means, he calls Draco to a confab. In that 
> > conference, Voldemort makes his assignments. 
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> This does indeed make sense and would make a good plot... 
> but it's just plain not in the book.  Despite endless 
> opportunities to have someone mention it.  It's not like 
> this is a documentary, and JKR just didn't have the 
> footage!  
> 

bboyminn:

Tremendous amounts of the story are not in the book. The
author is aways expecting us to fill in the backstory 
with references she makes in the fore-story. In fact the 
story at ('at' not 'of') Spinners End is not in the book. 

Spinners End is NOT Draco and Voldemort face-to-face, and 
it is not an eye witness account of the Draco/Voldemort 
meeting, which means we can't actually know what happened 
there. We are both (you and I) filling in the backstory 
with assumptions made from our read of the fore-story. 

What Spinners End is is characters, primarily a near 
hysterically distraught mother, giving a second-hand 
account and personal interpretation of what happened in 
the Draco/Voldemort meeting. It is what the author wants 
us to know in that time and place in the story, but when 
we have the whole story, we reasonably fill in the 
missing pieces. 

Further, it is clear that all the character, all the 
players, at Spinners End know something, but it is 
equally clear that none of them knows everything. Each
has been told what Voldemort saw fit for them to know.
We don't know that Voldemort gave Narcissa the whole
truth, in fact we know for a fact that he didn't. It
is possible that in his conversation with Narcissa
Voldemort emphasized that he had given Draco an 
impossible task as a means of getting back at Lucius,
and I've agreed that was probably an aspect of it. But
all Narcissa knows and the impressions she formed were
forced on her by Voldemort (likely), and Voldemort's 
agenda with Narcissa may be different than his agenda
with Draco.

Remember, I've never denied the 'Voldemort's revenge' 
aspect, in fact, it plays a major role in my theory.

Like it or not there is a huge off-page backstory here,
so what is it? Draco and Voldemort had a meeting, how 
and why did that come about? Revenge for revenge sake
falls short for me, Revenge as a nice juicy bonus of
a real plan to accomplish something makes more sense.


> Sydney:
> 
> But there is no fig, or a corner of a fig, or even a 
> fig-leaf hinting at a fig.  Neither, for that matter, 
> is there a bowl of fruit.  ..
> 

bboyminn:

Yes, but I will remind you that you can't see the 
painting either. You are taking as absolute fact 
someone's fear that there might be an apple in a 
painting that you can't personally see, and in a 
painting that the 'fearful' person has never seen 
in it's entirety.

It may be a strong indicator of what is likely to be 
in the painting, but it is not proof. Keep in mind that
I've never denied that there was an apple in the 
painting. I've just said that there is more to the 
painting than we know, and there absolutely is. There 
is absolutely something hiding behind the bowl of fruit, 
and there are clues that it might be a fig. 


> 
> Steve:
> 
> > I've said before, that my theory does not alter the 
> > plot in any way. 
> 
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> Well, I'm afraid it does.  The plot as presented in 
> the  book, is Voldemort has a plan to punish Lucius 
> by killing Draco.  

bboyminn:

If your interpretation hinges on the 'Draco killing 
Dumbledore' task and my interpretation hinges on 'Draco 
killing Dumbledore' task then why would either scenario 
play out any different? You seem to keep forgetting, 
that I'm sure Voldemort asked Draco to kill Dumbledore 
as a way of making the entire Malfoy family squirm.

But if all he wants to do is kill Draco, then why doesn't 
he just kill him? Or why doesn't he just torture him? 
Again, why waste all the time and resources on a do 
nothing plan? Unless as a secondary benefit, the plan 
actually is a plan and actually does have the potential 
accomplish something beyond annoying the Malfoys? 


> 
> Steve:
> 
> > Why Draco? Why not someone else? Well, secrecy for 
> > one. Also, who better than Draco to fix the cabinet. 
> > ... If not Draco, then, realistically, who?
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> It's not "and of course the juicy revenge aspect"  The 
> juicy revenge aspect IS THE PLOT.  This is the part where 
> you alter the plot.
> 

bboyminn:

I take your point here as you've made it several times 
before, but you are ignoring the context. The question
is /if/ Voldemort knows then why does Draco fix the 
Cabinet instead of someone else? 

The answer is because Draco is already there and he 
already knows the secret. Since you claim, apparently, 
that only Draco knows about the cabinet, it's 
understandable why you would question the question.

> 
> Steve:
> 
> > Finally, you keep asking for canon, but before I 
> > give it let me point out that Spinner's End does 
> > not confirm Betsy's or Magpie's view. I think their 
> > interpretation is the way that JKR wanted us to 
> > interpret the books ... But Spinner's End  only 
> > expresses Narcissa's views, it doesn't confirm 
> > them. 
> 
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> ...
> 
> But what's going on here, is that we're shown a drawing 
> JKR has labelled 'Rabbit' ... and you're saying, "it's 
> not a rabbit, it's a.... lesser variegated Welsh *HARE*!  
> See how she's cunningly not revealed the characteristic 
> stripe of dark fur that normally tips the ears of this
> species!"
> 
> ...
> 

bboyminn:

I'm sure you'll be surprised to find that I agree with 
this analogy 100%. The picture is labeled 'Rabbit', and 
so you accept that it is a rabbit. I say it is a 'Welch 
Hare' which, as you pointed out, is a rabbit. So, my 
version doesn't contradict your, as I have been saying 
all along, my version is simply your version with details.

> 
> Steve:
> 
> > Neither is Spinner's End confirmed. We are made to 
> > think Narcissa is expressing Voldemort's motivation. 
> > But she is an extremely distraught mother worried 
> > about her husband's screw up and her son involvement 
> > way over his head. She has ever reason to worry, but 
> > we have no proof that her version is the correct 
> > version. 
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> JKR has a very limited set of means to convey plot 
> points.  She either sticks tightly to what Harry knows, 
> or she shows us a scene 'cold', without any helpful 
> narrative additions.   She doesn't have any way to
> express Voldemort's motivation, except through dialogue. 
> 

bboyminn:

Surprisingly, I agree. I'm not challenging what Narcissa 
said at Spinners End, what I am challenging is your 
absolute assertion that it is the whole and complete
story based on the ramblings of a distraught mother
who has second-hand information that was probably 
conveyed with a separate agenda of it's own. 

Again, I've never denied that your interpretation is the
story, just that it isn't the /whole/ story.


> Steve:
> 
> > Admittedly, I am filling in a little of the off-page 
> > backstory, but that back story fits my interpretation
> > of the  book to a tee. 
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> But, it's still a fig that's not the bowl.  ...
> 

bboyminn:

And all you know is that someone who has not seen the 
whole picture is afraid that there is an apple in the 
bowl. I'm not denying there is an apple, I'm denying 
your absolute certainty that there are ONLY apples.
Who knows there might be a pear. 

> 
> Steve:
> 
> > Still, it has been a hell of a fun discussion and a very 
> > nice break from Horcruxes and Snape.
> 
> Sydney:
> 
> Yay!  I'm having fun with this one, I hope everyone else 
> is too...
>

bboyminn;

I see now that this thread is winding down, a Snape thread
is taking over as the dominate post. Well, I guess it keeps
the Snape fans off the streets.

Steve/bboyminn