Re: CHAPDISC: HBP20, Lord Voldemort’s Request

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 158169

--- AnitaKH <anita_hillin at ...> wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: 
> Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, 
> Chapter 20, Lord Voldemort's Request
>    
>    
>   ...edited...
>    
>   Questions:
>    
> 1) Later, we discover the "small girl" was Crabbe or 
> Goyle, and he was serving as lookout for Draco. Who 
> suspected this was more than it seemed at the time? ...
> 

bboyminn:

Completely blew past me, though I think hints were being 
dropped in other parts of the books that this was 
significant. JKR does that frequently, drops small hints
that we don't realize are important until later, then of
course, it's clear as day.

I did find it odd that the girl seemed so frightened, and
wondered if Harry/Ron/Hermione's reputations had grown so
grand that younger students were star-struck or 
frightened of their reputations upon encountering them. 


> 2) There's a fair amount of shipping in the beginning 
> of this chapter.  Do we learn anything about the 
> relationships ... that we don't already know?  
> 

bboyminn:

Well, we learned that Ron is a typical hopeless /boy/ 
when it comes to girls. And we get some of the first 
hints that Harry is developing a crush on Ginny. I don't
think it is so much learning something we didn't already
know as it is re-enforcing things we had suspected all
along.


   
> 3a) ..., Luna comes up with ... comic relief (CR). ...,
> we're also given the information that there is an 
> antidote in the Gurdyroot  – is this simply CR or will 
> we discover Luna's not as "loony" as we presume? 
>

bboyminn:

Well, I don't know if the Gurdyroot is significant since
it is an antidote for a probably non-existant 'Gulping 
Plimpies'. But I will say that Luna is not as 'loony' as
she seems to be presented. She seems quite capable and 
did well at the Ministry of Magic Battle. I think in some 
ways, her quiet detached nature makes people 
underestimate her. Notice how Luna is pretty much left 
unguarded in Umbridge's office when the Inquistor's Squad
capture everyone. We didn't see that scene but it is 
possible that part of what allowed them to affect an 
escape was the I.S. underestimating Luna as the threat. 


> 3b) On a related note: What did you think of Ron's 
> reaction to Luna in this scene?  Did it surprise you?  
> Is your own reaction to Luna similar or different from
> Ron's? 
>

bboyminn:

No, I think Ron's reaction was genuine. Luna has proven 
herself a relaible ally and a trusted friend. I think Ron,
much like Harry on the train ride to Hogwarts, is 
expressing a new found admiration for his excentric 
friend.

    
> 4) What does the scene with Trelawney do at this point?
> It keeps her on the reader's radar, but is there a 
> larger purpose ...? Do we need reinforcement that she 
> is antagonistic to Firenze? Is its purpose to remind us
> that she is in danger from the prophecy,...? 
>

bboyminn:

I think this really is just JKR keeping Trelawney on our
radar screens, and on several points reminding us of her
significants. I think partly this sets up our/Harry 
encountering her in other parts of the book, and helps 
set up the ground work for the scene where Trelawney 
finds Draco in the Room of Requirements and Harry 
subsequently trying to encourage her to come and tell
Dumbledore.

So, I think on one hand it is a series for reminders to 
the readers. On the other hand, it is the set up for the
later scene with Harry. Beyond that, I don't think it has
any huge significants.


    
> 5) In this scene, we see one of the few times that 
> Dumbledore really calls Harry to task for his failings.
> ...  How did you feel about DD in this scene?
>
> 6) Do you find Dumbledore being manipulative here, 
> playing on Harry's healthy sense of guilt? Or is he 
> genuinely seeking Harry's opinion for some reason?
>    


bboyminn:

I'll combine these two questions since they are related.

I found Dumbledore's actions very genuine and very wise.
Most administrators and parents would have approached it
with 'What is wrong with you?', 'Can't you do anything
right?', 'What am I going to do with you?'. All very much
the wrong approach. Dumbledore treats Harry like and 
adult. He doesn't lecture him or belittle him. He speaks
in a reasoned and reasonable why. He doesn't force guilt 
onto Harry, Harry's guilt comes from inside himself, and
is founded in his own knowledge that he has not made his
best effort at something that is immensely important.

- - - quote - - -
"I see," said Dumbledore eventually, peering at Harry over
the top of his half-moon spectacles and giving Harry the
usual sensation that he was being X-rayed. "And you feel
that you have exerted your very best efforts in this
matter, do you? That you have exercised all of your
considerable ingenuity? That you have left no depth of
cunning unplumbed in your quest to retrieve the memory?"
--- end quote ---

He isn't telling Harry he's failed, he is asking Harry to
evaluate his own efforts in this matter. I think it was
handled very well, and I am reminded of another scene in 
an earlier book in which Harry actually wishes Dumbledore
would yell at him because the silent look of 
disappointment in Dumbledore's eye is more painful than 
any amount of shouting. 

I think it is a very Dumbledorean moment.



> 7) Dumbledore talks about how disappointed certain 
> staff members are that Tom went to work at Borgin and 
> Burkes.  Is it because ... a "cashier," ..., or is it 
> because he's working for ... purveyors of Dark Arts...? 
> 

bboyminn:

Seems to me a combination of both. Tom is a brilliant 
wizard; powerful, intelligent, knowledgable, and 
charismatic. Why would he waste his huge potential on a
clerks job in a dark magic story? I'm sure all his 
supporters saw him one day as Minister of Magic, perhaps
the greatest so far. They had grand visions that didn't 
include being a store clerk. Little did they know that
Tom had grand visions of his own, but in a far darker
nature.

I've always thought is was odd, that Voldemort could have
easily been the most magically and politically powerful
wizard ever, if he had pursued the right path. As it is,
his own dark quest to achieve those very objectives will,
in the end, be his downfall. The very power he is seeking
could have been his, if he had only chosen the path of 
light.

   
> 8)... speculation: if Dippet had still been Headmaster,
> would he have given LV the DADA job when he returned to
> interview for it?
>

bboyminn:

My take on Duppet is that he is a very weak willed person.
Someone prone to seeking crowd pleasing but ultimately
hollow political solutions to whenever problem he 
encounters. As is perfectly illustrated in his Basilisk/
Hagrid problem and solution. He didn't want answers, he
wanted it over with. 

As to whether he would have hired Voldemort, I think it
depends on how much Dumbledore was able to influence him.
Dippet seems to seek the path of least resistance, and it
might have been politically easier to hire Voldemort in 
that moment, then to struggle with the consequences of
denying him the position.

    
>   9) Rowling describes a "red gleam" in Voldemort's 
> eyes when he sees and touches the locket.  What clues 
> does this give us?  ...
>

bboyminn:

I think, as others have already pointed out, that JKR is
marking Voldemort progress, we are seeing early hints of
who he will eventuall become. Beyond this, I'm not sure
these many Penseive scenes must contain subtle clues that
Harry will eventually pull together, but at the moment I
confess that I don't see them.
    
>   10) We get a glimpse of yet another House Elf, with 
> Hokey.  How does her story flesh out both the character
> of the House Elf and their plight?
>

bboyminn:

I'm not sure there is any significants to this beyond JKR
showing us a range of personalities amoung house-elves
that parallels the diversity among humans. Some are good,
some are bad, some are poorly treated, some are well 
treated.

    
> 11) This is the infamous "ten years later" scene that
> has caused much gnashing of teeth.  Is there any way to
> reconcile this timeline ... or ... up to Rowling's 
> notorious maths?  Is the Fawkes's presence at the 
> interview with Riddle important? ...
> 

bboyminn:

I'm not sure what timeline controversies are found here.
But I suspect that it is a case of people taking 
generalizations as absolute all-encompassing all-defining
statements. I believe there is a reasonable resolution to
the timeline if one seeks it out.

I think Fawkes's presents is another way of marking the
timeline, of indicating that we are in a time when
Dumbledore is Headmaster of Hogwarts. In a sense, it is
Harry's first visual clue that Dumbledore is in charge 
and not just sitting in the Headmasters office. 


> 12) This scene encapsulated ...Voldemort's behavior in
> the past that led to his  downfall ....  Are ... these
> are the seeds of his destruction? How do you think 
> Ollivander's use of the word `great' ...fits ...with ...
> DD & Voldemort on the issue of `greatness'?"
> 

bboyminn:

I agree that we are seeing that Voldemort has indeed 
chosen the wrong path. Everything Voldemort is ultimately
seeking could have been his, if he had only followed a
different path. Yet, it is clear here that he has chosen
his path and will not be swayed, and will not yeild to
reason or logic. His choice is irrevocable.

I don't think Ollivander's use of the word 'great' is 
anything sinister. I don't think he means great as in 
good. I think he is simply saying that Voldemort's action
were of a significant magical magnitude. There has never
been any doubt that Voldemort was a powerful and 
knowledgeable wizard. Others used the example of Hitler.
Hitler /did/ do some great things, and had he chosen a 
different path, could have done many more great things, 
but he let his own delusions of grandure and infalability
lead him to his own destruction, as well has the 
destruction of many many innocent lives. But, deranged as
he may have been, you can't deny his 'greatness'.

I think the same it true of Voldemort, he is capable of
doing things of a great magnitude, and of great historical
significant's, but that doesn't mitigate his madness. 


> 13) Are we to presume that the twitch Harry saw in 
> the Pensieve memory is Voldemort casting the DADA 
> teacher curse?  What else might he have been doing? 
>    

bboyminn:

I'm not so concerned with Voldemort cursing the DADA job,
though I think the 'twitch' was either him casting the 
curse, OR just a reflection of him iching to curse 
Dumbledore. But I am concerned with people's insistance
that Dumbledore should have done something about the
DADA job curse. 

Exactly what was Dumbledore to do? If you curse my chair,
I can point my wand at it and perform a counter-curse 
and get on with my life. But let me ask, where is the
DADA job? Where do I point my wand to preform the 
counter-curse?

Referring to the 'spot of bother' associated with the 
DADA job, it has been referred to as 'cursed' but it has
also been referred to as 'jinxed'. I take a 'jinx' to be
a very specific bit a magical bad luck that is forced 
into a situation. Draco use a 'trip jinx' on Harry that
force a bit of bad luck onto Harry that caused him to 
trip. That seems to be the case with the DADA job, bad
luck will befall anyone who takes the job. Since it is 
a very vague and non-specific action assigned to a very
intangible entity, it would seem very difficult to 
conceive of a spell to counter it. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn