Fidelius Charm - Godric's Hollow Destroyed

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 158307

---  "esmith222002" <c.john at ...> wrote:
>
> Just to follow on from my previous post.
> 
> It seems likely that the only person PP told about the
> Potter's location was LV. ...
> 
> At some point after, a member of the order came to GH 
> to retrieve Harry. The problem is this - as Harry is 
> still alive and still under the Fidelius Charm, how 
> exactly did anyone manage to find him? Could you find 
> James & Lily now that they are dead?
> 

bboyminn:

You are actually, directly and indirectly, posing 
several questions.

The first, though very much implied, is how could that 
house be physically destroyed when the AK Curses doesn't
physically destroy things. The bodies of it's victims
remain unmarked.

Again admitting that this question was very much implied,
we see that curses that otherwise do not do physical 
damage do do physical damge when they miss their target.
Wing of a stone angel is damaged in the graveyard, a hold
is left in the floor near Nevilles hand, Dumbledore 
splinters a substantial door with a stunning curse, 
etc....

Further, a Killing Curse has never rebounded before, we 
can't really predict what will or won't happen under that
circumstance. I suspect when the Kinetic enegy of the 
spell was redirected by Lily's love shield, it acted with
the destructive power of a missed spell, but was 
magnified by the uniquenss of the stituation.

Now on to more directly related matters.

> Brothergib:
>
> There has been lots of speculation that SS was there 
> that night. My only theory is that SS contacted DD to 
> tell him that LV had attacked GH but SS could find no
> trace of the Potters. 

bboyminn:

Just one problems, if something, such as the house as you
suspect, is under the Fedelius Charm, then no one but the
Secret Keeper can speak it's name. JKR said that even if
James or Lily were captured, they could not, even if they
desired to, reveal the location of Godic's Hollow. I 
don't think they could even speak the name in an innocent 
context.

Snape could only be there if he was brought there by 
Peter and LV. LV could bring Snape, but he couldn't tell
Snape where he was bringing him. Though Peter could tell 
Snape. Neither could Snape tell Dumbledore, because the
Charm would prevent Snape from speaking the name of the
place. I also suspect that you can't reveal the name by 
indirect inference. For example, Snape couldn't say that
Dumbledore needed to go to 'that small valley that has 
the same first name as Gryffindor' and hope that 
Dumbledore would put it together and come up with 
'Godrics Hollow'.

So, I can only see two possible ways for anyone to have
been able to suddenly know about GH and to convey that
information. One, the spell was broken. Two, directly
or indirectly, Peter told a few people in the Order. 

Now many people seem to think that Peter would 
personally have to tell anyone the secret and that would
give him away as the Secret Keeper, but we see from the 
books that this isn't true. Moody reveals the Secret of
Headquarters to Harry, but he does it indirectly. He
hands Harry a note which is written by Dumbledore, and 
the note says:

"The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be 
found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London."

Harry reads it, and the note is immediately destroyed.

For the moment, file that away, we'll come back to it
later.

I can only concluded that when the Charm was cast, a few
key people were told the Secret. I suspect that Sirius 
delivered handwritten notes to Dumbledore and a very few
others. The notes were written by Peter, but delivered 
by Sirius, which helped maintain the illusion that 
Sirius was the Secret Keeper. The notes were destroyed 
immediately after being read to prevent anyone from 
analysing the hand writing and discovering that it 
didn't look like Sirius's.

I suspect that this is possible because I suspect that 
the Potters did need some level of support; food, news, 
etc....

To my way of thinking, only that and the possibility that
the Charm was broken make sense. My personal opinion is 
that both are true. A few people did know the Secret, and
the force of the rebounding AK or some other circumstance
broke the Secret Keeper spell.

I do have a theory on 'some other circumstance' that 
might have broken the spell. 'Fidelius' is related to
'fidelity' which in turn is related to 'faithfulness to 
obligations, duties, or observances'. When Dumbledore 
reveals the Secret to Harry and members of the Order, he 
is maintaining his oath of 'fidelity'. He is honoring
his oath of obligation and acting in the interest of that
oath.

When Peter reveals the secret to Voldemort he is 
breaching or breaking his oath of Fidelity in the most 
extreme and egregious way. In breaking and dishonoring 
his oath, he has in affect broken the Charm, thereby 
allowing the secret to be spoken and known by all. 

It is possible that Dumbledore sensed that the Charm had 
been broken, and immediately sent Hagrid. It is also 
possible that Sirius sense a shift in the oath of 
secrecy that alerted him to a problem, and lead him 
directly to Godrics Hollow. I know the book doesn't say
that, but it could be a secondary aspect.

> Brothergib:
>
> Maybe this is the reason why GH is destroyed. If the 
> Fidelius charm is placed on the house, rather than the 
> people, then maybe DD instructed SS to destroy GH, and 
> then he would be able to find  Harry?
> 
> Brothergib
>

bboyminn:

I don't think that is how or why the house was destroyed,
but it does bring up one the biggest unresolved mysteries
in the series. Exactly what, in terms of phrasing, was 
the 'Secret'. Once again I point out the note Dumbledore
gave Harry. I post it again to refresh your memory -

"The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be 
found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London."

Is seems that the 'secret' is /not/ 12 Grimmauld Place,
but 'Headquarters of the Order'. Twelve Grimmauld Place
is only relevant because it is the /current/ location of
'headquarters'. I suspect, if 'headquarters' moves, as it
did, the secret moves with it. 

If the Potter's Secret was -

'The location of the Potters is at Godrics Hollow'.

Then 'the location of the Potters' is the secret, and
'Godrics Hollow' is the current incidental location.

If the Potter's Secret was -

'A house at Godrics Hollow is the place were the Potters
are hiding'.

Then 'Godrics Hollow' is the secret, and it is incidental
that it is the Potters who are hiding there. 

In the first case, Godrics Hollow could be found but the
Potters could not. In the second case, no one could be 
found if they were in the house at Godrics Hollow because
the house itself could not be found. 

Yet as others have pointed out in previous discussions, 
relative to the Charm, is the rubble of the house still 
the house? 

Logically, the location secret would not be as vague as
I have made it above, it would be more like-

'The house at number six Killarney Street is the place
where the Potters are hiding.'

Since an address is mentioned, then is it the /house/ 
that is the true secret or the address? Independant of
the existance of the house, the lot or address always 
exists. Further how did the muggles and the Ministry 
come running to a house that can't be found?

Your idea that Snape destroyed the house, makes me ask, 
how could he find a house that couldn't be found, much 
less destroy it? How could the secret be reveal to him
in such a way that he could destory the house, and would
that really break the Charm?

Lastly, there are endless complications with the Charm
actually being on the Potters and not the location. 
First, the Secret Keeper is still alive, so the secret
/should/ still be intact, which means that the Potter
where ever they are, in the grave, home, school, the 
Burrow, is made secret by the Charm. That means we 
shouldn't be able to find Harry, and we shouldn't be
able to find his parents graves because those locations
are protected by the Secret Charm. That also means that
the Keeper of the Secret no longer actually knows the
Secret. Peter doesn't know where Harry is and he likely
doesn't know where Lily and James' graves are. What does
that do to the Secret Keeper Charm when the Keeper no 
longer knows the Secret? 

The only explanation of the Secret Keeper Charm that 
makes sense with what he already know, is that the Charm
was broken by Peter's breach of fidelity, or by some yet
unknown mechanism. Regardless, if the charm was not 
broken, and regardless of whether it was on the Potters 
or their location at Godrics Hollow, the plot becomes 
extremely and near irrevocably unresolvable. 

So, I conclude it must have been broken. 

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn