Thoughts on the Fidelius

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 158498




Snow:

Sorry for the late reply Mike 

> Snow (me) previously:
> That makes it sound as though the Fidelius is conditional to the 
> residence and I thought it was stated that it was conditional to 
> the secret keeper only, which was Dumbledore in the case of 
> Grimmald Place. 

Mike now:

See, this is part of my premise. The secret has to be *proprietary*. 
You can't just call any place you want your 'secret' residence. DD 
can't walk up to Lucius Malfoy's mansion and invoke a Fidelius Charm 
saying that this house is the secret HQ of the Order of the Pigeons, 
thereby stopping the Malfoy's from finding their own house. DD 
doesn't have propriety over Lucius' house. It's the same for 12GP. 
Sirius, as the owner of the house, has to give his permission to 
make the house the HQ for the OotP and to be part of the 'secret'. 
Once Sirius is dead, the house passes to new ownership. If the new 
owner does not consent to it being the HQ then the Fidelius is 
dissolved. DD would no longer have propriety to claim the house as 
part of his 'secret'. That's why they moved the HQ out until the 
could positively determine that ownership was passed to Harry and 
that Harry had no objection to keeping the HQ there.

Snow:

Then whom ever owned the place where the Potters were hidden in 
Godric's Hollow would have had to give permission for someone to put 
a Fidelius on it, that much I agree on. However, the owner giving 
permission or taking permission away or dieing should have little 
bearing on the Fidelius once it was cast. This is why I don't feel 
that the residence or address has much to do with the actual Charm

depending I think on who cast the Charm. 

The only circumstance that can eliminate the Charm, imo, would be if 
the caster of the charm dissolved it or moved it (like Dumbledore did

temporarily). If the secret keeper of the Charm dies, the secret dies 
with him. The only reason anyone found Godric's Hollow was because 
the Charm was broken. In both circumstances we know of concerning the 
Fidelius the secret keeper does not die and yet Godric's Hollow was 
breached and Grimmald Place was not, why?

This is why I tend to think that the secret keeper is not always the 
caster of the Charm. In the Grimmald Place scene I would expect the 
caster to be the same as the secret keeper, which was Dumbledore 
since The Order was the elite group of defenders led by Dumbledore; 
No one but himself could be entrusted.

In the Godric's Hollow scene I would lean less towards the secret 
keeper also being the one who cast the Charm. Peter, no matter how 
much he has been portrayed as competent (later in life), has no skill 
to the degree of performing complex magic such as the Fidelius. 
Someone else had to have performed the spell. Someone who also kept 
himself hidden and checked up on the secret keeper, someone who could 
lift the Charm or move it if need be. 

This was a unique situation where the Potters entrusted Sirius to be 
secret keeper over Dumbledore himself and yet at Sirius request 
relied on Peter in his stead. What better way to ensure safety than 
to elect the caster to be different than the secret keeper? 

The caster of the Charm could reverse it if need be; like if Peter 
was found not to be were he should have been found with no evidence 
of struggle. That way someone could find the bodies and any evidence 
as well as save anyone lucky enough to survive. 


> Snow (me) previously:

> Sirius dying did not affect the Charm since he was not the secret 

> keeper, which then makes perfect sense that the Fidelius was not 
> the homestead but the Order. Dumbledore said that they moved the 
> Order temporarily until they were certain of whom the residence 
> belonged to.

Mike:

See above. Sirius dying affected the ownership of the house which 
*does* affect the applicability of the Fidelius. His dying doesn't 
necessarily break the charm nor reveal the 'secret' location of the 
OotP HQ, but the new owner could certainly invoke his/her right of 
ownership and refuse to allow their property to be someone 
elses 'secret' location.

Snow:

I agree which makes it that much more interesting to who owned the 
house in Godric's Hollow. If Dumbledore owned the house and died then 
there may be a problem with the Fidelius if his elected processor 
disputed the Charm but Dumbledore didn't die so who owned the house 
because the house was revealed? Did it really matter who owned it in 
this case?

I know I am doing a very bad job at convincing but I don't think the 
property has bearing on the Charm to the degree of the occurrence of 
GH. I just don't see it in this situation. It isn't about the 
location. 

> Snow (me) previously:> 

> If we apply this same condition to Godric's Hollow then Peter 
> being said keeper, who is not yet dead, would remain to hold the 
> secret of the Fidelius and yet even muggles knew the whereabouts 
> once the deed was served. No one could have found Godric's Hollow 
> residence if Godric's Hollow were the protected item of the 
> Fidelius charm. (I admit it doesn't make much sense the way in 
> which we have been viewing it)

Mike:
Right, which is why I view the 'secret' as no longer *true* once the 
Potters are no longer hiding (Lily and James dead, Harry removed). 
But, I further hypothesized the the Fidelius was cast as a "we are 
hiding from someone" charm. This would allow Flitwick's presentation 
to still apply to the Potters scenario and would make sense of the 
aftermath. If LV was told the 'secret' then the Fidelius is broken, 
anybody can find the Potters now. It doesn't matter that Peter, the 
SK, is still around, the Fidelius was already broken.

Snow:

I'm not sure I follow what you mean. Peter being SK can't tell 
Voldemort the secret or the Charm will be void?  If that were true 
the SK could not tell anyone the secret. I think I misunderstand. 

I was saying that the secret does not necessarily have to be 
connected to a building (Flitwick's example was the use of --- but 
does not have to include ---; it was nothing more than an example). 
Peter did not die so therefore the secret did not die with him 
 so 
why was the Charm lifted? A very redundant question I know

> Snow (me) previously:
> <snip>

> But I have to ask before I read on if you feel that the Fidelius 
> did not protect Harry that night?

Mike:
Yes, I think the Fidelius included Harry, at least I would hope so. 
But we must take into account what Flitwick said. That it is an 
immmensly complex spell and that the Potters may not have cast it 
correctly.

Snow:
We are back to the question that I asked myself in reading this 
response of whom the caster of the Charm would be. Somehow I just 
don't see the Potters initiating the Charm. It just doesn't make 
sense to me and I'm not sure how better to explain it. 


> Snow (me) previously:
> This might be were I part company completely because the Potter's 
> were not only protecting themselves but more so their child. Even 
> if you take the prophecy out of the equation, you can't dismiss 
> the protection factor of parents for their child. Especially if 
> James and Lily were not aware of the prophecy because they would 
> then be 'thee' intended victims and would want to protect the baby 
> that much more merely being parents. 
> 
> If James and Lily were aware of the prophecy, I don't think much 
> would have changed except that they would have made alternate 

> plans for the child's protection separate from their own so Harry 
> would be that much more protected if Voldemort managed to 
> infiltrate their own defense.
> 
> Snow, thinking Mike and I may be on the same page but coloring the 
> picture differently.

Mike:

I'm not seeing where you and I part company. I don't disagree with 
anything you say in the above paragraphs and don't see where it's 
different from what I'm saying. Unless you mean that *bulletproof* 
crack? ;-) All I'm suggesting there is that the Potters may not have 
understood all the ramifications of how they worded their spell 
and/or may not have known what they could or couldn't make 
a 'secret' of. Maybe I could have added *inexperienced* instead of 
bulletproof.

Snow:

Actually I think it was more so the fact that you see the Potters as 
imprisoned at Godric's Hollow and I don't. The Order came and went at 
12 GP. 

I was also addressing more the issue of what the Potters knew of the 
Prophecy to date and how that would affect their decision, if at all, 
on how to proceed and whom to protect in what way.  

Mike:

I don't think DD ever told the Potters about the prophesy per se, 
only that LV was after them and Harry personally. You have a good 
idea regarding seperate protection for Harry, but I just don't think 
they did it.

Snow:

I'm actually iffy on this one for many reasons. As I said, even if 
the Potters were unaware of the Prophecy they would have protected 
their child's life greater than their own but I think separate, as to 
not put all their eggs in one basket. If they were unaware of the 
Prophecy then they may have been even more inclined to protect their 
child from their own possible fate. 

The only thing that makes me wonder whether they knew or not is what 
Dumbledore told Harry in the (outhouse) broom shed about who all knew 
of the Prophecy, "there are only two people in this whole world that 
know
" sounds like two people who now know or the only two people 
alive who know; he didn't say the only two people who ever knew. 

Mike:

To sum up, IMO there is no longer any Fidelius on the house in 
Godric's Hollow nor the hiding place of the Potters (all 3 of 'em). 
Also, IMO, the *whereabouts of the HQ of the OotP* is still 
a 'secret' and now that DD is dead, nobody new can find the *HQ* 
location. As to anyone finding the house at 12 GP, I think the 
protections the Blacks put on it are still in place, independent of 
the house being the "secret HQ of the OotP. So if the OotP moved out 
or disbanded, Harry might still have a problem with the Black's 
protections, or not. Who knows, who cares, it's not going to be a 
factor, Harry will never live there.

Snow:

Totally agree with everything you said here except (you knew there 
would be one) your last little off hand remark that Harry will never 
live at 12 GP. I have actually had my heart set on it since I 
mentioned a while back that Harry would have to protect his rotten 
aunt at `his' house
 I so hope its true.