Thoughts on the Fidelius, GP and Kreacher, GH house

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 158546

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> > Before Carol, Snow wrote:
> > 
> > Then whom ever owned the place where the Potters were hidden in 
> > Godric's Hollow would have had to give permission for someone to 
> > put a Fidelius on it, that much I agree on. However, the owner  
> > giving permission or taking permission away or dying should  
> > have little bearing on the Fidelius once it was cast. <snip>
> > 
> > The only circumstance that can eliminate the Charm, imo, would  
> > be if the caster of the charm dissolved it or moved it (like 
> > Dumbledore did
temporarily). <snip>

Mike:
This Fidelius Charm is a persnickety little bugger, ain't it? Here's 
my reason why I believe the owner of the property where a Fidelius 
Charm has been used to hide something matters:

"... Dumbledore said calmly. 'The situation is frought with 
complications. We do not know whether the enchantments {plural} we 
ourselves have placed upon it, for example making it Unplottable, 
will hold now that ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. It may 
be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment.'..."
(HBP, US, p.50)

If the Fidelius isn't affected by change of ownership of the 
property, why would DD be worried that Bella might show up at any 
moment? She wasn't told the 'secret'. She shouldn't be able to find 
the HQ. I suppose we could say that she can find *her* house, but 
she wouldn't be able to see anything of the OotP in *her* house. 
That really sounds too convoluted for me and I doubt JKR would have 
set up the magic to act that way. No, I think DD is worried that his 
Fidelius may be inoperable if Bella has taken ownership of 12 GP and 
that is why they moved out.

DD is worried that the Fidelius, among the "enchantments", 
won't "hold". I don't think we were told that DD dissolved his 
Fidelius and I seriously doubt one can "move" a Fidelius. But no 
matter if he did either, why would he have, unless he thought that 
new ownership meant that the Charm was inoperable, at least against 
the new owner? And if it became inoperable against the new owner 
then, by default, there is no longer a 'secret' that is known only 
by those told it by the SK, which by my reading would mean the charm 
would be broken.

> > Snow again:
> > In both circumstances we know of concerning the Fidelius the
> > secret keeper does not die and yet Godric's Hollow was breached 
> > and Grimmald Place was not, why?

Mike again:
I'm not sure if you think some of us need convincing of this. IMO, 
Everyone is pretty sure the 'secret' at GH is dead and gone or 
Hagrid wouldn't have found Harry. I don't need convincing and I 
don't think Carol does either. (that is right isn't it, Carol?). 
We're not against ya on it :-)

> > Snow again:
> > The caster of the Charm could reverse it if need be;
 <snip>
> > We are back to the question that I asked myself in reading this 
> > response of whom the caster of the Charm would be. Somehow I  
> > just don't see the Potters initiating the Charm. <snip>
 
Mike again:
I like the idea that the Fidelius caster could remove the Charm, 
just like I think the UV bonder can dissolve the UV. But, there is 
one technical difficulty with this re the Fidelius. If the Charm 
caster is not the SK, how would they find the place in order to 
dissolve the spell? "Time and space matter in magic, Potter." (SS, 
OotP) Alternately, if the Charm caster is not the SK or one of the 
people the Charm is affecting, would it be technically possible to 
cast the Charm, given that the secret is already known by an 
*outsider* before the secret is made? Kinda makes your head swim, 
doesn't it? It's your idea Snow, I'm gonna let you figure that one 
out. <eg>

> > Snow earlier: If Dumbledore owned the house and died <snip> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> <snip>
> Dumbledore, the Heir of Gryffindor, offers the Potters his cottage 
> in Godric's Hollow as a hiding place  <snip>

Mike:
Why are you both convinced that the Potters don't own the house in 
GH? James is wealthy, an only child whose parents have passed on. 
Why couldn't the *house* be his parents house that he inherited? Or 
a house that he and Lily bought? Did I miss something in a previous 
thread or possibly in canon?

I snipped Carol's laying out of the scenario because I think she hit 
the nail on the haed. I just have a couple of nitpicks which relate 
but don't really affect her GH scenario presentation.

> Carol, pulled out of the middle:
> (which also explains how Bellatrix could forget that Kreacher 
> belongs to 12 Grimmauld Place). 

Mike:
Kreacher went to see Narcissa, Bella was still in prison during 
Christmas '95. (Hey, I said it was a nit I was picking ;-))
But while we're on the subject. I think Bella and Cissy both know 
that Kreacher belongs to the Blacks and are perfectly convinced that 
Sirius, being that last of 'em, is holed up at 12 GP. I think they 
can't find the place because of all the protections that were placed 
on the house by Sirius' ancestors, and Bella and Cissy know that, 
too. This really has nothing to do with DD's Fidelius for the HQ, 
and everything to do with the elder Blacks paranoia (which might be 
well founded, seeing as what happened to 2 of them in '79).

> Carol:
> *or* when the hiding place is destroyed <snip>

Mike:
This one isn't a nit on you, Carol ;-). I was wondering, are we ever 
going to get an explanation of why the *house* took a beating? I 
mean, we saw a thousand year old tunnel cave in when a lousy memory 
charm backfired because of a faulty wand. Do you suppose that will 
serve as enough of an explanation for what happened at GH as far as 
JKR is concerned? Do you think she expects us to extrapolate for an 
AK, 'Love' magic defense and a house instead of rock and just *get 
it*?

Mike, not convinced that book 7 is going to answer half of our 
questions unless JKR runs it out to the size of "War and Peace"