looong - musings on Dumbledore - Even Longer

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 158580

---  Janette <jnferr at ...> wrote:
>
> So the impression I am getting, as a newbie to this 
> list, and I am sure you will correct me if I'm wrong 
> (!) is that we are generally convinced that Dumbledore,
> while being the greatest wizard of his time, was also 
> arrogant in his decision making, particularly with 
> regard to the placement of Harry with the Dursleys.
> 
> I think this is a correct assessment, ... Harry as a 
> pawn in his longterm game plan ...
> 
> But DD at the time of Harry's AKing is not like this. 
> ...  His office is up in the tower and requires a 
> password....  I would imagine ... that he was a fairly
> solitary person, unapproachable to most, and 
> singlemindedly dedicated to defeating LV and the DEs 
> as he had Grindelwald.
> 

bboyminn:

I think one of the reason that the discussions of 
Dumbledore and his actions becomes so polarized is 
because we each see an aspect of him, but refuse, for 
what ever reason, to see the whole.

Is Dumbledore manipulative and calculating? Certainly,
partly because that is the position that is thrust on him
by circumstances. He is the living genius in the Wizard 
World, and like it or not, that puts great responsibility
on him. So, he does ...because he must.

But that doesn't define him in totality, he is still 
human and quite capable of being very fond of Harry and 
concerned for his safety and well-being. 

>From another perspective, he is all-knowing and 
all-seeing. Yet, again he is human, he makes mistakes, he
is as prone as anyone to misjudgements and miscalculation.

And yes, he is solitary. JKR said in an interview that 
Dumbledore is truly a genius, talented beyond measure, he
is /without peer/, and that is the problem. Where is 
Dumbledore's equal, where is his confidant, where are the 
people, or even the person, who can understand things at 
the level that Dumbledore does? Where is the person he 
can trust with absolute certainty? There are none. So,
he goes it alone. He makes his decisions in an 
intellectual vacuum. He does the best he can with the 
resources he has.

I think it is unreasonable to think that Dumbledore 
didn't weigh all the possibilities when determining 
Harry's fate. He could have been left with a loving 
wizarding family, but there are problems, as Dumbledore
points out, with Harry continued existance in the British
Wizarding World. If nothing else, his exposure and the 
mass awareness of his location compounded by his fame. 
He could have been placed with a wizard family in say 
Austrailia, but that places him very far away from the 
protection of Dumbledore and those who care about his 
fate, and doesn't really guarantee his anonymity and 
therefore doesn't guarantee his safety. He could have 
been place in some muggle institution; orphanage, foster
care, adoptive parents. But those too have their 
drawbacks. Yes, they do have some advantages, but they
also have drawbacks.

The choice he made was a terrible choice, but in 
Dumbledore's mind the advantges out weighed the 
disadvanteages, and can we ever hope for more than that 
in real life. Dumbledore was under time pressures. Harry
needed to be safe NOW, and as the Longbottom attack 
proved Harry needed to be safe for a long long time. 

It seems that some wizards were generally aware of 
Harry's location; note I said generally aware. Also note 
that one of the wizards who interacted with Harry was 
Dedalus Diggle, a Dumbledore supporter and member of the
Order who may have been guarding Harry as he shopped with
the Dursleys. True, he may also have just been a fan of
'The Boy Who Lived' and wanted to honor him by bowing to
him in a shop. On another occassion, a witch waved to 
Harry on a bus. Again, that could have been an Order 
member sent to guard Harry as he traveled. But again, it 
could have merely been a fan who recognised him. But I 
think it is significant that the one person who bowed to
Harry was a member of the Order. 

Further note that Voldemort himself comment on the 
absolute nature of the protection Harry has at the 
Dursleys. Voldemort seems to recognise the wizdom of
Dumbledore's choice even if the readers do not.

My point in all this, is that while it was generally 
known in the Wizard World that Harry was with his muggle
relatives, it was only specifically known by a very small
few exactly where those muggles lived. 

Is there anyone out there who truly lives a 'Happily Ever
After' fairytale life? Life is struggle, life is pain, 
you can deny that and thereby compound your misery, or 
you can accept it, and instead of fighting the 
inevitable, you can seek out what good you can find in 
life and accept the limited happiness that results. 

Harry seems to have found his happiness where ever he 
could, perhaps only is his dreams of giants on flying
motorcycle, but none the less, he found his bliss in 
something besides his living environment. 

Harry does show sign of his mis-treatment at the Dursley.
He doesn't have a lot of friends, he doesn't socialize a 
lot, he doesn't turn to adults (or friends) for help, he
stays within a small tight knit group of people that he 
feels he can  trust with absolute certainty, but even 
among them, he is withdrawn. He is independant and 
self-reliant to the point of being dangerous. There are 
many things he still hasn't told Ron and Hermione. He is
concerned with what the Twins will think of him, he is 
self-conscious of his image, not in a glory seeking way,
but in a way that shows insecurity. These in my mind are
all residual signs of the environment he grew up in.

> Janette:
>
> We have no knowledge that he (Dumbledore) had much, if
> any, contact with the Marauders or Lily before they 
> left school and joined the Order. We don't know if he 
> had any contact with them even then.  
>

bboyminn:

I understand your point, but I'm not sure how true it is.
Certainly there is an element of truth, but we know from
the text that Dumbledore had conversations with James and 
Lily, we know he assisted them, we know they were in the
Order, we know that Dumbledore himself says he was very
fond of them. So, he certainly had some association with
them. But again, in his knowledge and responsibility, he
is above everyone else, carrying burdens that few other
would or could carry. That makes him very isolated.

> Janette:
>
> I am thinking of Tonks - she is young and takes a fairly
> active part in the new Order, but what real contact does
> she have with DD?  

bboyminn:

I believe that Harry meets Tonks in the hallways and she
is either just coming from talking to Dumbledore or just 
on her way to attempt to talk to Dumbledore, and my sense
is that these were personal conversations, not strictly 
business.

But still, I think she goes to him as a wise advisor, and
not as a friend. As I've already acknowledged, Dumbledore 
has few social friends. He has few people he can confide 
in partly because the things he would need to discuss 
would be of a nature too sensitive to reveal to others,
and partly because he has no peer who can analyse things
on the intellectual level that Dumbledore is capable of.
JKR said this very thing in her interview.


>Janette:
> 
> ...  When LV was defeated, he placed Harry with the 
> Dursleys for a number of reasons, all leading to the 
> same purpose - that of raising DD's champion against LV,
> as the prophecy had now been seen to apply to Harry, 
> through LV's choice.
>
> Harry was removed from the wizarding community ... then
> there was that "blood protection" - valid or not.  Plus,
> leaving Harry with Sirius would remove Harry from DD's 
> influence.  He must have known that the Dursleys would 
> raise a Tom Riddle type character - in fact he may have
> instructed the Dursleys to do so - *the point being that
> he would be DD's Tom Riddle*, and therefore his knight 
> to set against LV.
> 

bboyminn:

Yes, to all those things, but I don't think their truth 
is all-defining. Dumbledore can't function in a vacuum, 
he knows things that can't be revealed to others; the 
Prophesy for example. Harry's fate is sealed, Voldemort 
is determined to kill him. Dumbledore feels that while
Voldemort is presently gone, he is not truly gone, and
one day he will be a threat again; a threat to both 
Harry and the Wizard World. So, Dumbledore must consider
many many things; many things I'm sure he wishes he 
didn't have to consider, but none the less, the burden 
in on him, and he must make the best decision he can in
a very short time, and to the greatest long term benefit.


> Janette:
> 
> Where his grand plan went wrong, I think, was that he 
> grew fond of Harry, which he had never expected to, and
> that totally changed things - he could no longer expose
> Harry and stake him out as bait to bring LV into the 
> open to be despatched by DD, for example.  ...
> 
> Nothing that hasn't been said before, but just trying 
> to pull it together...
> montims
>

bboyminn:

Dumbledore even acknowledges that his fondness for Harry
lead him to mistakes, but he also acknowledges that those
mistakes were impossible to avoid. Anyone who watch Harry
and saw what an outstanding person he was couldn't help
but grow fond of him. 

Dumbledore has the fate of the Wizard World thrust on to
him, and burden he can't ignore, nor one that he can 
trust to self-serving polticians. So, like it or not, 
Dumbledore is pulled in two (at least) directions. One 
on hand he must be a cold calculating bastard, because 
that is what must be done if he is to win the terrible
battle ahead. But on the otherhand, he is intrusted with
the fate of a sweet innocent boy, who turns out to be 
brilliant; brave, courageous, and self-less. 

So, again Dumbledore is torn by the fate of the world and
the fate of an individual. He is force to make terrible 
decision, decisions that he can't pawn off onto others. 
Dumbledore has terrible responsibilities that he can't 
escape, that he can't avoid. He must make terrible 
decision because there is no peer he can trust to make 
them for him.

It is a situation I would not want to be in.

Steve/bboyminn