Sirius without trial - a perspective

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 158756

EDITED for typos and attributions and another reply added :)

> bboyminn:
<SNIP>
Keep in mind that
> right now here today, the USA is capturing and
> imprisoning people without trial or any 'due process' at
> all. Just out of curiousity, do you condemn Bush,
> Rumsfled, and Cheney with the same vigor that you condemn
> Dumbledore?

Alla:

Yes.

Bboyminn:
> Now to the critical point, a point I have made several
> times before, and a point which the anti-Dumbledore crowd
> seems determined to ignore.
>
> SIRIUS DIDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF!
<SNIP>
> Like it or not, if you are charged with a crime, you
> better be willing to vigorously defend yourself, or as I
> so eloquently put it, you are screwed.
>
> We see from the little canon that we have that Sirius
> did not do this. He was overwhelmed with shock, grief,
> depression, and mostly guilt.
<SNIP>


Alla:

I thought I said enough on this subject, but I suppose I want to say
some more with **Sirius did not defend himself** argument. Please
refer me to any canon, that Sirius was given a chance to do so.

Sure, he did not say anything defending himself when he was just
caught, but for all I know he was not even present at that
**hearing*, so say his initial guilt and shock and grief passed a
little.

What could he have done? For all I know he was thrown in Azkaban
without anybody talking to him at all. So, Sirius sure did not
defend himself for all the reasons you listed, but unless I learn
that he was given an opportunity to do so, I am not blaming him for
that.


bboyminn:
> I speculate that it is possible that, racked with quilt
> and grief, Sirius may have even made statements implying
> his guilt.


Alla:

Yes, a possibility, but unconfirmed one as far as we know so far at
least.

bboyminn:
> I think if you look at it objectively, you can see that
> the whole circumstance does make sense. Dumbledore didn't
> act because he had no motivation to act. All the evidence
> pointed to Sirius, and Sirius was not denying their
> interpretation of that evidence, what else could they
> conclude?

Alla:

What evidence?

bboyminn:
> You can claim I have blaming the victim, and you would
> be right. Sirius at crital juncture chose to wallow
> in guilt and self-pity rather than defend himself and
> step up to his other responsibilities. As far as I'm
> concerned he is in a situation of his own creation, and
> he is further perpetuating that situation by failing at
> anytime (that we know of) to asset his innocents and
> tell his story.

Alla:

Well, this is your right. As I said I am not engaging in blaming the
victim much. As far as I am concerned Albus Dumbledore made a very
big mistake that night and I would like to especially vigorously
challenge the idea that Sirius was perpetuating the situation later
on by falling to assert his innocence.

Please show me the canon that he was given an opportunity to do so,
to assert his innocence after he was caught(NOT on the place of
murders, because I am not disputing of course that he was not
defending himself **initially**, but after he was caught). I am also
wondering why he would be motivated to write any letters in a few
years of being in prison, if nobody did anything to help him first
time around?

Why would he think that anybody would listen to him, if they did not
before?

Carol:
> And BTW, AFAIK, he didn't go after Pettigrew in PoA because 
Pettigrew
> presented a danger to Harry, as someone recently stated. He went 
there
> to commit the murder he'd been arrested for--a reckless and 
dangerous
> act of vengeance that would not have helped Harry and would have 
led
> to his having his soul sucked by the Dementors. If Black hadn't 
come
> after Pettigrew with the intent to murder him, Pettigrew would have
> had no motivation to escape his comfortable role as Weasley family 
pet
> and escape to the Dark Lord.


Alla:

I think he did come after Pettigrew precisely because Harry was in 
danger as I think this quote says, unless of course you argue that 
he is lying again.

Of course he was eager to kill Peter, but he left Azkaban because he 
was afraid that Peter will deliver Harry to Voldemort. Those two 
motivations are not mutually exclusive, but "danger to Harry" is 
what seems to motivate him first and foremost. 


"But then I saw Peter in that picture... I realized he was at 
Hogwarts with Harry... perfectly positioned to act, if one hint 
reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again...."
Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noiselessly, but staring all
the while at Black as though hypnotized.
"... ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies... and 
to deliver the last Potter to them. if he gave them Harry, who'd 
dare say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort? He'd be welcomed back with 
honors....
"So you see, I had to do something. I was the only one who knew Peter
was still alive...." - PoA, ch.19, paperback, am.ed.


JMO,
Alla