Sirius without a Trial - In Perspective

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 158757

> bboyminn:
> 
> I'm continually stunned at how irrational or hyper-
> rational (more accurately) people can be on the subject
> of Sirius being sent to prison.

Magpie:
Glad to oblige!

Steve:
 I do try to allow for the
> fact that we all frequently overempahsize a point simply
> to isolate and make that particular point, but what I am
> reading seems to go beyond that.

Magpie:
As I said, I assume that's probably at least partly in response to 
posts defending how everything went down.

Steve:> 
> First, we know for a fact that their was no trial for 
> Sirius, but no trial does NOT mean /no investigation/.
> Since Dumbledore gave testimony, their must have been an
> inquiry; in otherwords, an investigation. I suspect the 
> investigation was more like a hearing in which a 
> committee headed by Crouch Sr. review the evidence and 
> found it overwhelmingly against Sirius. 

Magpie:
I'll concede that there was some investigation, but not much of a 
deep investigation because the story still stands that what everyone 
thought was true was completely wrong in a way that came out fairly 
easily once the right people were questioned.  The investigation 
seemed to be very limited to prove the story they already had in 
front of them with little need for hard proof.  I still stand by 
what I said absolutely--Sirius' case being handled in a sloppy way 
is the way JKR gets around having to come up with a brilliant and 
air-tight (rather than just gutsy and impulsive) frame-up.  I don't 
really see what's so hyper-rational about it.  I always thought this 
was the way it was presented in canon. There was circumstantial 
evidence against Sirius, and that was enough given everything else 
going on.

Steve:
Keep in mind that
> right now here today, the USA is capturing and 
> imprisoning people without trial or any 'due process' at
> all. Just out of curiousity, do you condemn Bush, 
> Rumsfled, and Cheney with the same vigor that you condemn
> Dumbledore? 

Magpie:
Yes, I do.  In fact, I'm not even "condemning" Dumbledore in the way 
I "condemn" them.  Comparing him to those two doesn't put him in 
very good company. 

Steve:> 
> Now to the critical point, a point I have made several 
> times before, and a point which the anti-Dumbledore crowd
> seems determined to ignore.
> 
> SIRIUS DIDN'T DEFEND HIMSELF!

Magpie:
Actually, the "anti-Dumbledore" crowd hasn't ignored it at all.  
It's been admitted over and over again, as has the fact that no one 
is blaming Dumbledore for putting Sirius in jail.  Is this the point 
that whatever crowd you're representing is determined to ignore? 
Sirius' jail time was the result of a number of different factors.
We know that Sirius felt the need to punish himself and that it 
possibly connected to why he was in jail, and nobody's blamed 
Dumbledore for that feeling of Sirius'. It's not asking a lot to 
suggest that Dumbledore, most good and the most wise, who always 
understands everyone's motives and how everything went down, might 
feel something about being completely duped by a Death Eater, might 
think about what he might have done differently. 

PoA even has an ironic re-telling of the Sirius story with 
Crookshanks and Scabbers where again Scabbers is thought to be the 
victim eaten by cruel Crookshanks, with plenty of evidence for such. 
People do confess to crimes they haven't committed in the real world 
too; they don't always go to jail for it.  Your "you snooze you 
lose" explanation of the justice system might contain truth, but 
it's not really an epitome of goodness moment, is it.

Steve:
> Just trying to put things in perspective? For what it's
> worth.

Magpie:
The arguments of the other side can be put in perspective as well.  
They're not calling for Dumbledore's head.

Alla:
What could he have done? For all I know he was thrown in Azkaban
without anybody talking to him at all. So, Sirius sure did not
defend himself for all the reasons you listed, but unless I learn
that he was given an opportunity to do so, I am not blaming him for
that.

Magpie:
Actually, didn't JKR say in an interview in response to the question 
of why people didn't use Veritaseum on Sirius that Crouch would 
believe Sirius could get around the Veritaseum?  That seems to put 
Sirius in a tight spot--if Crouch had already decided testimony 
under Veritaseum wouldn't count because Sirius could get around it, 
I don't see how Sirius speaking up without Veritaseum would have 
been enough to get justice going his way.  And of course, we know 
they couldn't have used any of the Wizard forensics we know about 
like Priori Incantatum on Sirius' wand or Legilimency or a 
Pensieve.  I don't remember that quote of JKR's in full but it may 
have strengthened in my mind the idea that was supposed to have been 
railroaded.

-m