In defense of DD WAS musings on Dumbledore - Even Longer

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 158786

Sridhar:

> I agree with Carol. In OOTP, Dumbledore's main considerations were:
> 1. To keep Harry out of harm's way by using "family" as a powerful 
> means of protection
> 2. To keep him away from the WW, where LV and DEs might have 
easily 
> found him. Muggles are negligible to LV and therefore might not be 
> able to find him. The Muggle World is not so closely knit as the 
WW 
> and so it would be mightily difficult even for LV.
> 3. To make Harry grow into as normal a boy without any of the 
> arrogance of his father.
> 4. For Harry to be happy and healthy.
> 

Magpie:
Now I'm back disagreeing again on the last two points. Because 
first, I really don't see where there was any pressing need to make 
sure Harry didn't grow into James, and second, obviously 
Dumbledore's main concern was not that Harry should be happy and 
healthy or he would have had to have considered removing him from 
the Dursleys.  Dumbledore even says flat-out he knew he was letting 
Harry in for some dark years with that family.

Sridhar:
> Agreed, the last point did not turn out as DD planned, but all 
that 
> matters is that Harry was safe.
> 
> I think that Harry growing up with the Dursley's had bonuses 
> unexpected even by DD. 
> 
> - Harry grew up oppressed, giving him a strong sense of justice.
> - Harry doesn't have money, hence knows their true worth. His 
giving 
> away of the Triwizard Earnings to the Weasley twins with the 
words "We 
> all need a laugh" shows this.
> - He is very selective about his friends. While he talks to a lot 
of 
> his school mates, Ron, Hermione and Nevile (to some extent) are 
his 
> only true friends. If he had been in the WW, he most probably 
would 
> have made friends with someone like Draco.
> - His life in the WW, where he is adulated is balanced by having 
to 
> live with the Dursleys, especially during his adolesence. 

Magpie:
But those bonuses were unexpected, as you said--really they're more 
incredibly lucky breaks rather than bonuses.  Growing up oppressed 
would not necessarily give Harry a true sense of justice.  It could 
just as easily give him a sense of always being oppressed.  In fact, 
I'd say that's sometimes what he has.  His sense of justice is often 
very much dependent on which person he's talking about.  He hates 
people who remind him of the Dursleys, but that doesn't always 
translate into an unerring sense of justice.  He *thinks* he has a 
great sense of justice, but he doesn't always by a longshot.

Not having money doesn't automatically make a person not care about 
money.  It can just as easily make them focus on money more, as it 
often does for the Weasleys. Yes, Harry isn't totally focused on 
buying expensive things all the time, but he's rich.  Ron also grew 
up without money and gets more frustrated about it when he can't 
have the basic things Harry can.  There's just not that much in the 
WW to want, really.  

There's absolutely not reason to think Harry would have been friends 
with Draco Malfoy had he grown up in the WW--James wouldn't have 
been, and I wouldn't be surprised if he'd disliked him even 
earlier.  Being selective about your friends is a trait many people 
share--including Draco Malfoy.  Or Ron or Hermione.  Or James 
Potter, who may have misread Peter but sure had a loyal (if flawed!) 
friend in Sirius. So I don't think I'd say getting yelled at 
constantly by the Dursleys is the thing that made Harry choose his 
friends well.  (And frankly, he's not really friends with Neville, 
he just recognizes him as a good guy.)

Would you really say he needs the balance of living with the 
Dursleys to keep him from getting a swelled head?  It's not like 
he's constantly adored in the WW either.  I'd actually say he 
learned to distrust that kind of worship more by seeing the downside 
and shallowness of it in the WW rather than being at the Dursleys.  
Again, I'd say it's lucky Harry turned out this way.  Raising a kid 
to have no self-esteem and then tossing him into a world where he's 
a hero for simply continuing to breath, sounds more like a recipe 
for disaster to me than a way to make a good person.  It turned out 
all right, but I'd say it was more in spite of than because of the 
Dursleys.  And even if it was partly in thanks to them, it doesn't 
make Harry's treatment right.

> Magpie:
> A child growing up ordinary is good. A child growing up
> mistreated seems to be bad by definition, whichever way his
> character turns out.

Tesha:
Bzzzzzt - wrong answer - a child may be affected by their upbringing
for good or bad, but they come supplied with what nature sent down.

Magpie:
Bzzzt - wrong interpretation of my words.  I was not saying that a 
child mistreated was a bad child, but that mistreating a child is 
bad, whatever the nature the child was born with.

Tesha:
And besides, the WW is is a tough and nasty place where no one 
coddles you, not even your friends - In this situation, is DD really 
doing anything outside the ordinary in leaving Harry with the 
Dursleys?

Magpie:
I could have sworn the WW took family bonds very seriously and did 
not consider loving your children or your friends to be "coddling."  
Are all the children we see in the WW raised without love by their 
guardians?  Luna seems to love and be loved by her parents, the 
Weasleys love their children, Hermione (admittedly a Muggle) seems 
to have normal parents.  Neville's family may be bad for him but 
they seem to love him--his mother loves him so much even in a 
catatonic state she tries to give him something.  The Malfoys love 
their son.  I think Sirius' parents loved both their sons despite 
the horrible end to their relationship to the oldest one.  Seems to 
me that families where love goes sour are kind of significantly 
tragic--Sirius and his family, Barty Crouch and his son.

So yes, I'd say Harry's upbringing with the Dursleys is pretty 
darned unusual in this world--and notice that the Weasleys seem to 
feel this way too and rush to give him some of what they 
consider "normal" family experiences.  Those little signs of 
affection are incredibly important to Harry and all the more heart-
string tugging because he was denied them.  That's why Sirius was so 
important to him as well.  So I'm going to disagree and say that JKR 
actually does consider love an important part of family, and that 
the Dahl-esque Dursleys are OTT bad.
  
-m